How can people analytics enhance the strategic influence of HR?

In today’s episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, we will be exploring that exact question, through the lens of start-up financial services organisation, Chetwood Financial.

Having only been on their people analytics journey for a year now, Louise Millar, People Director, and Olivia Edwards, Colleague Engagement Lead have seen a remarkable shift in the perception of HR by the overall business.

From reshaping company culture to gaining buy-in from senior leadership, Louise and Olivia offer invaluable insights into how people analytics is reshaping the future of HR. As such, listening to this episode, you can expect to learn: 

• How Chetwood Financial initiated and embraced their people analytics journey;

• Tangible examples of how data-driven insights have revolutionised HR strategies and reshaped organisational dynamics;

• The role of people analytics in reshaping company culture and fostering employee engagement;

• Strategies employed by Louise and Olivia for gaining buy-in from senior leadership and reshaping organisational values;

• The transformative impact of people analytics on the future of HR and organisational success.

Support from this podcast comes from global platform leader for employee experience, Culture Amp. Learn more about how Culture Amp can help you create a better world of work at http://cultureamp.com

[0:00:00] David Green: Here at Insight222, we're deeply committed to understanding the evolving landscape of people analytics.  Each year, through our people analytics trends research, we undertake a comprehensive study to track how the field is growing and the tangible value it's bringing to organisations worldwide.  Each year, it becomes increasingly clear that the impact of people analytics on driving key business outcomes is not just growing, it's becoming transformative.  One of the key findings in our 2023 study was that people analytics is not only growing in size, but is also increasingly supporting and influencing senior leadership and the board.  This is certainly the case at Chetwood Financial, a scale-up financial services company based in Wrexham. 

Having started its people analytics journey just last year, Chetwood is already seeing significant improvements in influencing senior leadership decisions through data-driven insights.  It has also been able to identify key areas for improvement in making data-informed decisions to drive growth and improve employee engagement.  In today's episode, Louise Millar, People Director, and Olivia Edwards, Colleague Engagement Lead, join me to share how they are driving the success of people analytics at Chetwood.  Together, we will explore the initiation and progression of their journey, dive into how it has transformed people's strategy at Chetwood; we'll also discuss how the use of people analytics has enhanced the influence of HR in the boardroom and transformed the organisational perspective on HR's role and value at Chetwood.  With that, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast. 

Olivia and Louise, welcome to the show.  It's great to have you on to speak to our listeners.  To kick things off, could you give a brief introduction to Chetwood and your roles and responsibilities at the company.  So, Louise, I'll start with you on that one.

[0:02:08] Louise Millar: Yeah, great.  So, Chetwood started in 2016.  It got its banking license, its full banking license in 2018 and it's been scaling up and pivoting on certain products since then really.  So now, we're about 300 people, the head office is based in Wrexham, which has obviously got a bit more popularity of late and we've got a London office as well.  So, we've got people all around the country, we've got them in the tech space, financial services obviously, so we've got a plethora of qualifications and experience that we've got within our business at the moment.  But things have been going well, we've been growing as we've gone through the path since 2016, have seen a significant increase from starting with our co-founder, Andy, who's still our CEO, to now about 300 people. 

[0:02:55] David Green: Fantastic, follow-up for you in a minute, Louise, about what it's like to be a CHRO in a scale-up company, but I'll let Olivia introduce herself first. 

[0:03:04] Olivia Edwards: Thanks.  So, yeah, my name is Olivia, I'm the Colleague Engagement Lead at Chetwood.  I look after everything employee engagement, which includes DE&I initiatives as well as well-being.  I've been here for two years now, so I've seen a big chunk of the change and, hey, it's a great environment, it's never ending, it's never changing, so it's great. 

[0:03:25] David Green: Firstly, we have quite a lot of American listeners, so it might be interesting to talk a little bit about Wrexham obviously just to start as well.  But also, as part of that, maybe if you can share some of the challenges, or what you love about being a CHRO, or Chief People Officer, in a scale-up company?

[0:03:44] Louise Millar: I would say the variety is definitely there.  It's really exciting because every day is completely different, and because you are exposing, I suppose, the business to new things all the time, so I would certainly say for the likes of my team, who are relatively young as far as experience is concerned, that the exposure that they get to -- Liv will talk a bit about changing values, putting new values in place, I suppose the ramp up of your experience that you can get in a scale-up and a start-up is so significant.  It also means that you can go from strategic to actually getting your hands dirty with, you know, are the facilities still working, even though facilities doesn't fall under you sometimes.  I think the scale of what you have to deal with is so significant of growing a business, so you have to make sure you've got all of the people aspects, the legal aspects in place, the engagement to fundamentally drive the business forward and build the team as the business is growing, but then you have to make sure all the day-to-day activities are still taking place. 

So, I would say the exposure to certain things that you get sometimes, you go, "Oh, I still need to ask a question about that, I'm still learning".  So, I think even though my team are getting it, I'm still getting it as well on a day-to-day basis, which I absolutely love.  I think it's great and Chetwood has got a brilliant culture.  It's got a learning and developing culture, we learn by our mistakes.  It's got a great experience and it's got a great fun environment to it as well.  That's what you tend to find in start-up scale-ups, a sense of humour is key.

[0:05:08] David Green: I'd agree with that because we're in a start-up, well, start-up, small company ourselves.

[0:05:14] Louise Millar: Yeah.  But I would highly recommend anybody in their HR career to actually give it a go, because I've worked in large companies as well and they're great, but it never tests you as much as when you're doing a start-up scale-up and in a smaller business.  It definitely tests you a lot more than it would do. 

[0:05:30] David Green: And of course Wrexham's on the map, it's always on the map as far as I'm concerned in North Wales, but it's obviously come to prominence recently.  I'd be interested, have you seen more interest in the town since Ryan Reynolds bought the football club?

[0:05:47] Louise Millar: Yeah, I mean Liv lives in Wrexham, so I think it's probably a good one for you to pick up. 

[0:05:51] Olivia Edwards: Yeah, I live about five minutes from our office and our office is probably about a two-minute walk from the racecourse, which is Wrexham's football ground.  Obviously, the Ryan Reynolds takeover has really shook the town up and it's nice to put us on the map, especially as it just so happens Chetwood's based there.  It's crazy, even just going out with your friends and going on nights out and there being tourists there and people asking about the town and things.  It's crazy, but yeah, it's fun, it's nice. 

[0:06:21] Louise Millar: And I would say from a talent acquisition point of view, Wrexham is more of an attraction point now than it than it probably was previously, so it's helpful.  If we're recruiting around the country, we don't have to tell them where Wrexham is as much any more.  So, people knew where it was, but even everybody, everybody knows where it is now, which is to be fair, from an HR point of view, with talent acquisition, it's a great help.  So, thanks, Ryan! 

[0:06:45] David Green: Olivia, turning to you, at Chetwood I understand you've recently embarked on your people-analytics-driven insights journey.  Can you share with listeners a little bit more about the journey so far and maybe how and why it was initiated?

[0:06:58] Olivia Edwards: Yeah.  So, our people analytics journey really started about 12 months ago, basically when Louise joined the business.  So, for people-analytics-wise, our main source, until recent, was through our HR information system.  So, from this system, we pulled all the basic functional people analytics, such as demographics, age, turnover.  We also used an engagement survey provider alongside this, which was run on an annual basis.  The survey that we used itself was a really rigid system.  We waited a super-long time to see results.  And ultimately, by the time we got the results, all our employees were disengaged.  And the results, they were pointless.  With regard to turnover, people had to move departments, things like that, and we knew we basically had to start again even before we'd made a change. 

So, over the past few months, we've partnered with Culture Amp, and since then, our whole outlook on people analytics has completely changed.  Culture Amp itself, obviously the system, it provides immediate results, which is something that we really needed in Chetwood to drive change.  We had a big gap in knowledge of employees not really trusting and engaging with us, in the sense that we were going to make an impact based off our survey.  So, the partnership with Culture Amp has really changed our outlook to go to a data-driven culture.

[0:08:23] David Green: What have you learned personally about building people analytics, I guess, within a company?

[0:08:28] Olivia Edwards: So, it's been crazy.  Like I said, I've been here two years and this is my first role in HR.  And moving to Culture Amp, where people analytics is so prominent, it's really given me the insight and I think it's given Chetwood the insight of how important that data is to make valuable changes.  Moving away from HR, obviously being a gut feeling intuition, "Oh, people want development, people need a new performance management system", having people analytics has really given us that driver to make valuable change which, especially for Chetwood and the rate it's growing, has been so valuable.

[0:09:04] David Green: Brilliant.  And, Louise, obviously it sounds like you were the catalyst for this change when you came in a year ago, and obviously I understand you're still in the early stages of your journey.  And interesting, and understandable actually in a scale-up, that engagement is so, so key, and that's something where you can make a real difference in HR.  It'll be great to learn how this more data-driven approach has impacted your HR strategy so far. 

[0:09:31] Louise Millar: So, when I started, as Liv says, we got the basic data together, so the basic absence, attrition, what did our demographics love, when people were leaving, how long were they leaving for basically.  And fundamentally, so the first 12 to 18 months of our HR strategies, have all been based on our foundational aspects.  So, I'm a big believer and if you do the basics well and you do the simple things great, that's what people are looking for, do you recruit them well; do you give them the information; do they know where they're going; have they got clarity?  The basics really make a difference and I think the data that we drew, which with Liv's help, we drew at the beginning, showed us that we needed to spend the next 12 to 18 months just focusing on things like role profiles, things like, a big one that we did was new starters.  And it sounds really simple and a bit trite to say, "Have you got a corporate induction?"  Well, we didn't. 

We've put one in and I think for me, the essence of that is looking at people's time to competency, so the quicker you onboard people.  And I don't just mean recruitment, I mean when you onboard them in the business, they started on day one, how long does it take to feel comfortable; do they know what they're supposed to be doing?  So, the induction part of that.  And then, Culture Amp came in and we could do a probationary period sort of engagement survey about how well it went, so we could measure how well that was working.  What I'm hopeful for as well as we build this data up over the next foundation, certainly on the new starter piece, is that our average length of service when I started was, say, two years.  If we build a time-to-competency appointing new starters and go, "Have we got them up to speed; have we got the clarity with everything else; are they staying with us longer because we're delivering what we need for them?" and I think the data that we got to begin with drove a very, some people would say a very basic HR strategy, which was do the small and simple things well.

Moving forward, I think with the partnership we've got with Culture Amp, when we get a more rounded view when we've got developing and performing, we'll have a more connected link.  And I know we've got a question about talent management and employee development coming up as well, and that's where I think we can add more value.  So, that's probably the next stage in the strategy, basics doing well, time to hire, cost per hire, etc, initially now, and then let's move on to the next one.  So, the data drove our foundational strategy to begin with.  So, again, not particularly exciting, but definitely needed and definitely significantly made a difference to the business to start with.

[0:11:55] David Green: You previewed it, so I'd love to hear a little bit more on how you're using people data or thinking of using people data to enhance talent management and employee development initiatives. 

[0:13:29] Louise Millar: Yeah, I mean the first thing we did, so when we did the engagement survey with Culture Amp, and as Liv said before, because we got real-time data, we got information really quickly, what came out from that survey, from the main survey last April, was the fact that people wanted more development.  I find that a great question to ask but also, it's like a big bucket that, what does that mean and who needs it?  It means something very different to every person you talk to.  Development, it can mean, "I want to do better in my current job".  Some people might be a financial service analyst, but they also then want to learn knitting.  It could be something completely different.  Some people want to then get promoted.  How to answer it from a HR team perspective is very difficult because you can't necessarily answer it correctly to everybody. 

So, the next step for me, which was I think really key, is making sure that colleagues own their own development journey and they take responsibility for it, rather than a manager giving them what they think it needs to do in order to develop them.  And also, managers second-guessing, "Everybody wants to be promoted, everybody wants career development".  So, what Liv and I worked on was putting the Culture Amp module in, called Develop, which does exactly what we wanted it to, which was, everybody has their own Culture Amp account.  Every colleague then can put in a development request and say what they want.  It's very specific.  It helps them narrow down about what it's for, "Is it to be better?  Is it to be promoted?  Is it to do something different?  Is it …?" what is it?  And then it enforces the manager then, or the line manager, to have a conversation with them to speak to them about it. 

What that system does is give us the data to actually say, "This many people want development opportunities to promote, this many people want development opportunities to be better in their current job".  So, what that then does is, we can take it out and, say, any of the specialist technical things that people need to learn, say, in finance, we then let the business partner speak to the finance team and say, "Okay, so then this is what they're looking for", because that's technical, very specific.  But from our team's perspective, from HR we go, "Okay, then what do people generically want?  Is it the leadership skills that they want?  Is it well-being support?  Is it more how they get people on board, how they motivate people?"  And then that develops us into either a lunch-and-learn an annual calendar that we can give to everybody, a more specific development course.

We brought in one called Big Chats, Little Chats and it was a partnership with a company, called Laughology, who were amazing and very great for our culture.  They came and did a development course with our line managers to say, "Not about the what you have to do, more about the how you have to do it".  So, that allowed us basically, that data said that, "This is what you need to do, this is how we want to do it".  And therefore, the cost associated with that was an easy win about how you get that approved basically, because this is what we need, this is what they're asking for, you put it together.  It allows us to budget for the next year as well.  So, when we've got all these development opportunities, you can go, "This is what people are looking for, what's the best way to achieve that", and then we can budget for it accordingly. 

From a talent management point of view, we're probably not quite there yet.  The plan is when we launch Perform with Culture Amp, and we have the whole three, we have Engage, Perform, and Develop, the information that we get from that will be linked into our quarterly talent management process that we are commencing in conjunction with that, so we're not there yet, that will hopefully allow us to -- the data that I believe will come out of that is, if we give them this development, we look at the performance management element of it, then how many are promoted; how many do we give different opportunities to; how many have we got succession plan for?  And long-term, it can even see, you know, financial services and tech, you have a lot of males in senior positions.  If you do this right, you can help with the gender pay reports, etc, the gender pay gap in order to make it more balanced, shall we say.

[0:17:12] David Green: In the episode two episodes ago, with Didier Elzinga, the CEO of Culture Amp, he actually shared some of the research that they've been doing recently across all the companies that they work with, the data set they've got.  And they found that investing in engagement and company culture has a 300% ROI, which let's be honest, we all want some of that.  So, again, on that, Olivia, how are these insights helping shape the company culture at Chetwood?

[0:17:36] Olivia Edwards: Yeah, so when I looked at this, I really stripped it back.  And from ,where we were as a business before we started our journey on people analytics, I think the main change that we should be really focusing on is the level of trust that we've actually gained from employees from moving from a culture where we kind of just did what we thought was right to a data-driven culture.  There's two prongs really to this point.  Half of it is now that employees trust that we're doing the right thing; and employees now also trust that we are going to deliver, which I think has been extremely beneficial for us to get buy-in from the business.  As of today, we have run two engagement surveys.  We've run our flagship engagement survey in April and then a pulse one in October.  And we can say that out of both of these engagement surveys, we have made so many positive changes to the culture at Chetwood, and employees are seeing us make these changes which they have asked for.  And I think that is the main point really to shout out here, is we are trusted as a HR team, and what more can you ask for when you're trying to deliver change?

[0:18:51] David Green: At Insight222, since 2020 now, we've been doing an annual research of people analytics across a number of organisations.  And I think last year, in 2023, it was 271 companies participated in the research.  And it kind of explores the growth and value of people analytics in organisations.  In that report, we found that people analytics is increasingly adding value to business and senior leaders at board level as well.  Have you found this to be the case with the work that you're doing; and if so, in what ways have you seen data enhance your influence as an HR function and gain buy-in with other business leaders, and maybe even the CEO, Andy, that you mentioned as well earlier?

[0:19:35] Louise Millar: Yeah, I mean for me, what data does is it's a bit like a finance department.  It takes the emotion out of it and it takes the what-if out of it for me.  So, data drives your decision.  There's still, I suppose, a personal element that you need to do as an overlay.  However, it does take any of the why we're doing it out of the question.  They're not asking the why, "Why do we need to do an engagement survey; why do it?"  I mean, we had great buy-in from our senior leaders anyway to begin with.  But what it is doing is it's just showing the accurate reflection of the why, why we're spending that money, and then the measurement of how successful it is, because then you come back around it.  What I'd say, add on to Liv's point before is, all of the things that we do will reflect one way or another, hopefully positively, one way or another in the initial data pack that we put together, which was in relation to absence, attrition, time to hire, etc, all of that, our performance will always be put back into it. 

But for me, data just takes all of the emotion, because people are one of the most costly elements of any business, just not from a salary point of view, but a productivity point of view.  And so therefore, all the data that comes out of that shows you where you're performing and where you're not performing as well.  So for me, the buy-in comes, as I say, we have great support from our senior leaders and from a people aspect, but it just makes it clear.  One thing it does do, though, is as soon as you put some more data, clearly they want more!  And they're asking for extra things, so it's making sure that you can compete and keep up with that, I suppose, the requests that we're getting for it.  But I think it does from -- every other department has to put data behind why they're doing it and success measures behind why they're doing it, and the people team should be no different. 

[0:21:30] Olivia Edwards: Just off the back of what Louise was saying, as business, we've got a really great example of how we've used analytics to drive that influence.  So, about 18 months ago, we acquired another business, which meant that we'd obviously had two sets of values running side by side each day.  We realised really quickly, especially as we were all under the same roof, that we couldn't carry on with two sets of values.  So, over the past basically a year now, I spent a lot of time gathering qualitative data off employees through research sessions and things like that, about what they wanted and what they wanted to live and breathe really daily as a business.  We then also matched this with the quantitative data that we got from the engagement survey to establish that, (1) we needed a reset and we needed it quick; and (2) what this reset would look like for the business. 

We gathered all that data and put it into one pack and took it to agree with our executive team to decide what the values would be, how it would shape the business and the culture, and how we can really embed it and live and breathe it really, in every decision we make going forward.  Obviously, the values' reset was extremely important for our culture.  Employees now feel that they are all striving for the same goals.  And this also goes back to my point on how people analytics improve trust within Chetwood.  They all are aiming for the same goal that starts from the top and it goes all the way down.

[0:23:05] David Green: I mean, one of the questions that we get a lot, and I get a lot when I'm speaking at conferences, "Is people analytics important in a smaller organisation?"  And I don't know what you two would say, but I think it's arguably even more important because actually, if we got 300 people, 0.33% of the firm is one person.  So whereas if it was in a bigger organisation, that's not the case.  I don't know if you'd talk to, Louise particularly, maybe about the impact that has helped you have at the board level with the CEO by actually bringing data to the conversation. 

[0:24:32] Louise Millar:  think it gives more credibility to the conversation that we're having because you're right, smaller organisations, a lot of the time it's the emotional connection and they want to go with that, and they're moving at pace.  So, sometimes moving at pace can cause them, I'm not saying Chetwood's done this, but can cause them to make some errors in approach for what they want to do, because everyone believes something, whereas the data backs that up.  So, it just makes it more real and credible.  I think it measures our success because data is one thing to inform a decision, but then the output of it to say whether it's been successful or not validates your decision, or not as the case may be.  You can say, "Oh, actually …" and it's okay to make mistakes as long as you know you've informed them, or you go, "Okay, we did that because of that, let's not make that mistake again". 

But for me, it's not just the initial data to inform the decision, it's the data afterwards that says whether that's been right or wrong, or actually it's taking you in a different direction because the business has done something different as well.  So, it's the follow-on from it that for me is arguably more important than the initial one as well.  But from a smaller organisation, as I say, I've worked in larger organisations, I believe in people analytics throughout because I think it's a way of saying how well we're performing, not just as a business, as a team.  And I just think in a smaller organisation, it can have more of an impact.

[0:25:49] David Green: And actually you said a really important point, every other business function brings data to the conversation, why shouldn't HR?  And actually, now that you're doing that at Chetwood, I'd be interested, Louise, how do you believe that using analytics has changed that broader organisational perspective of the HR's function role and the value it provides at Chetwood?

[0:26:11] David Green: Look, it's hard to say what they thought of it previously because obviously, Liv and I probably weren't here as well, but I would like to think that the fact that we've come in and we've got more credible data to justify why we've done things and what we've done means that our team is seen as delivering high-quality change for the business on time, and then you're seeing the outputs.  And also, it shows that we are critical of ourselves about the projects that we do.  So, "How well have you done; and what's the deliverable for it?  How's it performed?"

The impact that a good people team can have on a business that is changing constantly, because it can stabilise some of those spikes that happen, because when a business is in scale-up and is changing, obviously attrition does go higher than you'd expect, so it's a cost to the business; if you can stabilise some of those people aspects and show it by data, then actually you're showing how much value you're adding to a growing and ever-changing business.

[0:27:12] David Green: And I think one of the measures, I guess, of success is the fact that, something you mentioned earlier, that when you bring in data, the expectation level goes up as well.  And it sounds, from what you said, that the expectation levels have gone up as well, which can be a blessing and a curse obviously. 

[0:27:29] Louise Millar: Yeah, I like it because it's a challenge, I think, for our team.  There's a constant challenge but to always do better; it's nice to have that as well.  And it also makes you think, certainly when a finance person, because I think our finance person also challenges not just our people data, but asks us questions about making that more financial, which is the right conversation to have and they'll help us get there really basically, so I think it's good.

[0:27:53] David Green: It's interesting you say that, Louise, because one of the things that we found in the research at Insight222 last year in the People Analytics Trends study was that those HR, or those people analytics functions that had a strong partnership with finance, also tended to be those ones that were delivering a value on a consistent and sustainable basis.  So, our relationship with finance is so important, isn't it?

[0:28:18] Louise Millar: Yes, I would agree, because they do -- I also think that it helps bring more credibility.  Finance, they are well established, they know the numbers and it is all about cost and certainly in a scale-up, it's about profitability, how quickly you're going to get there, what you're going to do.  And a finance team can help a people team do that well or not, as the case may be. 

[0:28:39] David Green: So, Louise, maybe to share with some of your peers that are listening, but  for HR leaders that are seeking to gain buy-in from senior leadership on the value of people analytics, what advice would you offer based on your experience? 

[0:28:52] Louise Millar: I think you need to start with the basics.  Don't try and over-egg it, start simple and small, start with the basics that the people will understand which is, who have you got in your organisation; how much is your salary bill; how much are your benefits costing you; look at your absence, because that costs you; look at your turnover; look at your length of service of how long people are there with you, because then that's obviously a knock-on impact on to your cost of recruitment, etc.  Look at those basics first because there's no point in doing development, ultimately engagement, until you sort that out, and then follow on.  You gain buy-in by showing the basics of what you can do and you just need to start somewhere, and that data is really easy to get.  Every HR system has that.

So, you don't need anything fancy.  I think Culture Amp is fabulous, but you don't need that to start, you just need to start somewhere and show it to somebody.  And you're right, I would suggest that your first pack that you're doing, walk it through with your finance person, because what they'll do is they'll help you add the costs into it as well, which legitimises your deck. 

[0:39:57] David Green: So, Olivia, turning to you, I appreciate you're still in the infancy of using people analytics, although it sounds like you've made a lot of progress in a short period of time.  But I'm curious to learn more about how you see the role of people analytics evolving at Chetwood.  Are there maybe any future initiatives that you're excited about?

[0:30:17] Olivia Edwards: For me personally, people analytics is obviously involved in this, but it's teaching line managers the importance of people analytics, and how to really drive change in their area.  So for example, our engagement survey, each line manager has an individual report based off their engagement score.  At the moment, it's obviously a concern that managers don't understand this data, what does it actually mean?  So for me personally, I am really excited and keen to get in there with our line managers and make them the drivers of change in their areas.  We've mentioned before, change doesn't just come from the people team, it has to start with individual teams, it has to start with their managers.  So, that's something I'm really going to be focusing on over the next few months, is getting line managers to care and buy-in as much as people analytics as we have.

[0:31:14] David Green: Louise, is there anything you'd add to that?

[0:31:17] Louise Millar: Well, we're going to do the final stage of our Culture Amp piece, so I'm really excited about Perform being launched in April as our start of our new financial and performance year, so I'm really excited about that.  And as you say, we've done a lot over the last 12 months.  So, I think our focus needs to be, the next stage of ours is embedding it.  Don't try and do anything new and fancy, let's embed that, let's make sure that the people analytics coming out of Develop, Engage and Perform, link into the basic people data, people analytics that we've got and reproduce that next stage of the pack. 

But back to Liv's point, line managers owning those three elements of that is crucial to the next stage of our success as a people team, as a business, etc.  So, I think the next year will be about embedding those things that we've launched rather than trying to launch anything new.  So, I'm excited about seeing where we can get to in the next 12 months with what we've got now, by coaching and getting managers engaged into it.

[0:32:13] David Green: Nice, it's very exciting.  It sounds like a very sensible strategy.  And as you said, to help you scale the work that you've already done, getting those line managers heavily involved is going to be really important.  So, I can't believe we're actually on to the last question now, the time has flown by.  This is a question that we're asking everyone in this series and I think it probably touches a little bit on some of the work that you've just been talking about both of you.  What are what are your top three ways that HR can play a pivotal role in creating a thriving organisational culture?  And I think, Louise, you're going to take that one. 

[0:32:53] Louise Millar: I am.  I think, well, clearly we're talking about people analytics, I'm quite passionate about that.  So I'm going to say, making sure people analytics is not just for the board.  It's great going up and coming back down, so a bit like what Liv said, managers owning their own data that they've got in analytics and driving forward in their own specific areas.  So, I think people analytics is a real cater to us.  The next one would be line managers.  I think line managers, and for want of a different phrase, sort of the middle chunk, I think are crucial to any organisational culture because they're managing people, so they're creating their own culture and their own teams, but also they're being managed or being led by more a senior person.  They're like the sandwich and it's a really difficult role to do.  And I think helping managers understand the role they play, informing them of what they can and they can't do, I suppose, giving them the tools to be able to do it, empowering them to be able to lead their team as opposed to just managing them in their roles, I think they fundamentally can make or break a culture.  So, I think that's really key. 

Finally, I think HR, more probably at a senior level, is making sure that people have clarity, clarity of expectations, clarity of expectations for them in the role, them in the business, making sure the business are giving clarity to people saying that, "This is the plan, this is the vision, this is the mission, this is what we're going through".  And I think HR can play a really key role in making sure that everybody has clarity about the part that they play in it, and that fundamentally impacts core culture.

[0:34:27] David Green: Really, really good, love those ones, Louise.  I think some really good practical guidance for other HR leaders listening to this episode as well.  So, we've come to the end of our discussion.  Olivia, Louise, thanks so much for joining us today.  Can you let listeners know how they can follow you and learn more about the work you're doing at Chetwood, and maybe, Olivia, if you've got any advice for people looking to get tickets to the racecourse, if you could add that in as well!

[0:34:54] Olivia Edwards: Yeah, so we're both on LinkedIn, just our names, Louise Millar and Olivia Edwards.  You'll also find Chetwood on there.  Our personal pages are a lot about the culture within Chetwood and what we're doing to strive for change.  And then our Chetwood banking page is obviously a little bit more about our products.  But there is loads of information on there to go have a look at.

[0:35:17] David Green: Well, thank you very much for sharing your story so far with listeners of the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  I'll be interested to see how that story develops.  Louise, Olivia, thank you so much for being guests on the show.  Thank you.

[0:35:28] Olivia Edwards: Thank you.

[0:35:29] Louise Millar: Thank you.