Delivering real business value with people analytics requires more than just data—it demands the right strategies, capabilities, and ecosystem.  

In this special bonus episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, host David Green is joined by Jonathan Ferrar, CEO of Insight222, and Naomi Verghese, Research Director at Insight222, to uncover what truly differentiates leading companies in people analytics. 

Drawing from Insight222’s latest research, they explore: 

• The biggest shifts in people analytics over the past five years 

• How leading companies maximise AI and data democratisation for business impact 

• The key skills and resources HR and people analytics professionals need to develop 

• The critical role of a data-driven HR culture—and how to build one 

• A sneak peek into Jonathan and Naomi’s upcoming book on the ROI of people analytics 

Packed with insights, research, and real-world examples, this episode is a must-listen for HR leaders, people analytics leaders, and anyone looking to transform their organisation with data. 

Listen now and take your people analytics strategy to the next level. 

For more of us at Insight222, check out our website, here.  

[0:00:00] David Green: Hi, I'm David Green, and you're listening to the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you'll know that people analytics has been a huge part of my journey.  But what you might not know is that back in 2017, when we established Insight222, we set out on a mission to help Chief People Officers and people analytics professionals across the world deliver real business impact by putting people analytics at the centre of business.  We do this through our research into what's driving and shaping the growth of the field, our industry-leading Insight222 People Analytics programme, and the extensive immersive learning experiences we deliver to upscale HR leaders, business partners, and professionals in consulting and communicating with data.  But the big question remains, what truly sets leading companies apart?  And how do we move beyond just doing people analytics to actually delivering value?   

So, in this very special bonus episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, I'm delighted to bring you two incredible guests who have been at the forefront of our research here at Insight222 to discuss exactly what it is that leading companies in people analytics are doing differently to drive success.  So, today, I am joined by Jonathan Ferrar, CEO of Insight222, and Naomi Verghese, our fantastic Research Director.  And in this episode, we are going to peel back the curtains on what makes the difference between just doing people analytics and truly delivering value.  So, without further ado, let's get started with an introduction from Jonathan and Naomi themselves. 

Welcome to the show, Jonathan and Naomi.  Let's start with what brought you both into the world of people analytics, and maybe more importantly for our listeners, why did you decide to dedicate the last few years to researching the field?  So, Jonathan, I'll start with you, because I know you've been in the field for over 15 years. 

[0:02:13] Jonathan Ferrar: Yeah, well firstly, David, thank you very much for this, having us on a podcast.  It's not normal to have our own team on a podcast, so I really appreciate that.  And I'm very, very excited to be here with Naomi to talk about research that we've been doing in the field for the last five years.  I grew up, I guess, as a scientist in the clinical trials area in pharmacology.  I always had an interest in research generally, in that case in the pharmaceutical bioscience area, and spent the first few years of my, I suppose, post-education life looking at actually cancer and things like that.  So, I had a lot of passion for science.  Then, from a business perspective, I got into the business world, I really loved it, I loved human resources, went through a variety of roles over many, many years.  And then, in early 2010, got asked if I would lead IBM's what was then new workforce analytics function.  And that was my intro into the people analytics space.   

But sort of funny story, I guess, is I asked, after I plucked up the courage after a few months, I said, "Well, why did you choose me?  There's 130 executives in HR in IBM, and why did you choose me?"  And they said, "We think you're the most scientific of our HR Executive Group.  And then, it sort of clicked that clearly things that I'd learned in my education, background in clinical trials, probably had seeped through in conversations and knowledge and maybe the way that I worked.  And therefore, I brought together both my passion for people and human resources, but my passion for science as well, and that's what got me into the people analytics space, very fledgling at the time.  And then, I got really hooked on it and how human resources can bring evidence into the conversation, as well as other things, but really build the evidence-based future of the function.  And I just got really, really attracted to the topic and to making my life basically the last 15 years, and that's it. 

[0:04:42] David Green: Yeah, brilliant.  And then, of course, we met at IBM.  Listeners may not know that.  Jonathan hired me at IBM, and then soon after, along with others, we set up Insight222 back in 2017.   

[0:04:56] Jonathan Ferrar: Shall I reveal that story, David?  That might be an interesting one for this podcast.   

[0:05:00] David Green: Go on, then. 

[0:05:00] Jonathan Ferrar: Because people don't know this.  So, very quick, we'll do it in less than 60 seconds.  But back in 2014, David revealed one of his very famous LinkedIn posts about the best of this, best of that.  And in those days, it was very fledgling, but David revealed a list which was called The Top 50 People in People Analytics.  I don't think we called it people analytics at the time, but anyway.  And I was on this list, and I was working in New York at the time, David was in London, so he sent this out on an early morning, and then I woke up a few hours later, and my LinkedIn feed was full of all these sort of congratulations, and what on earth is this?  And David, of course, attracts a lot of attention, and I got I found my way to this article.  And then it was like, "Well, who is this person?"  So, I sent David a note and said, "Hey, who are you?  What are you?  Let's meet up".  Next time I was in London, a few weeks later, we met up, I think it was February 2015.  And then, we got in conversation and said, "We should probably work together", and the rest is history.  And we've been working pretty much together ever since.  So, that's how we met. 

[0:06:09] David Green: Good story. And then, a few years into our journey at Insight222, Naomi, you came on board, Naomi Verghese.  So, Naomi, would you like to introduce yourself and your background in the field as well, please? 

[0:06:19] Naomi Verghese: Yes, and to echo Jonathan, David, thank you very much for having us on the podcast.  It's a real privilege and a bit different to be talking with you in this way.  But yeah, so our listeners know, my background, if I'm really honest, I stumbled into HR.  It was a bit opportunistic at the start of my career, but I've always been drawn to analytical roles in HR.  I also spent three years working in the business.  So, virtually all of my career before Insight222 is in financial services and most of that at Barclays Bank.  So, I spent a few years deepening analytical skills, working in a commercial team, looking at products and sales development and how the business runs.  Following that I moved back into HR and did a series of Chief of Staff roles for HR directors.  And again, those always had an analytical component.  And maybe to the frustration of my bosses, I was always more drawn to that side than some of the other responsibilities of the job.   

Then in 2016, 2017 at Barclays, we embarked on a really exciting transformation journey in HR.  A people analytics function was set up.  We set up a chief data office in HR, and we also set up a technology partnership and made some really serious investments in technology.  It was a very exciting time in HR in the company and I really wanted to be part of that, rather than doing analytics off the side of the desk.  So, I moved over into people analytics, was part of a leadership team that was building people analytics, so I got to do all sorts of different roles.  I was a product owner for our early democratisation solutions; I partnered with our governance lead to set up all of the governance for people analytics; I really enjoyed helping Barclays on that transformation journey.  And then, an opportunity came up to join Insight222 and to do that on a much bigger scale, and help a large number of organisations through everything that Insight222 does and across a wide number of industries as well.   

So, that's what brought me into Insight222.  And what we really aim to do with our research at Insight222 is help the HR profession put people analytics at the centre of business.  So, that's essentially what we're trying to do.   

[0:08:48] David Green: Thanks, Naomi.  So, at Insight222, we refer to 'leading companies' in our research.  For clarity, what are leading companies; and from the research, what do leading companies do differently when it comes to people analytics, Jonathan?   

[0:09:02] Jonathan Ferrar: The term, 'leading companies' is short for 'leading companies in people analytics'.  We don't mean leading companies in market capitalisation or share price, or things like, that we mean 'leading companies in people analytics'.  And what we have looked at over the last five years, since we've been doing research deeply in the people analytics space, is trying to isolate those factors.  So, we started off with some fairly general -- companies do various things.  We know that they deliver value, we know that they create impact, we know that they basically have a people analytics leader that's very proficient.  And then we got a little bit deeper into looking at maturity models, and then we came up with what we termed the Nine Dimensions for Excellence in People Analytics', which was talked about a lot in Excellence in People Analytics, the book.  There's nine dimensions that companies generally do, and we looked at those, and there were essentially three elements to each of those nine, so 27 elements and things like that.  And then, we narrowed it down and down, and we started looking at different data points, with Naomi's real expert help on the resource side.   

In 2022, we came up with this model called Leading Companies in People Analytics, and then we refined it in 2023.  By then, the data set's getting bigger.  In 2024, the data set was 348 companies, so we could really isolate things, and we came down to eight very specific things that leading companies do.  And they're all very, very discreet things.  So, the first one is influence.  The people analytics leader of the function called people analytics has great influence at the C-suite.  And what do we mean by that?  Very specifically, they have a relationship with a CEO, at least to meet with that person once a year.  And there are seven other things, you know, having great prioritisation, business prioritisation; having very key skills, data scientists, behavioural scientists, and consultants; having a very clear governance and ethics, particularly around how data is used and governed in the employee space.  So, there are four things, and then five on value, measuring the success and outcomes of people-analytic solutions; democratising data to managers and HR professionals, and getting adoption of that democratisation; personalising solutions is the seventh, not just creating nice insights, but actually bringing those to personalisation to the employees, managers, and executives; and then, creating a data-driven culture across HR by influencing and building data literacy.   

So, they're the eight very specific things.  There's detail behind them.  We can get into that, but that's the exciting part of what we do when we talk about leading companies. 

[0:11:41] David Green: Yeah, thanks, Jonathan.  And actually, we're going to dig into some of those characteristics a little bit deeper throughout the rest of the conversation.  And Naomi, let's turn to the most recent People Analytics Trend Report.  That's the fifth one, I think, since we started in 2020.  And we found this time some findings around AI and the democratisation of people data, and as you said, Jonathan, that democratisation to adoption element as well.  They were two of the top findings in this year's report and they're linked to business value.  Can you speak more on these trends and how they're influencing the adoption and growth of people analytics in organisations today? 

[0:12:24] Naomi Verghese: Yes, absolutely, David.  So, let's start with AI.  So, firstly, AI is not new for us in people analytics, but what has happened and what's affected everyone is generative AI's breakthrough year in 2023 with the release of ChatGPT.  What happened there, which everyone knows about now, is it created a lot of hype and a lot of reaction and interest and concerns in organisations all the way up to the C-suite and board.  And what we saw from the clients that we work with at Insight222, so the People Analytics Leaders that we partner with, their CHROs turned to them and said, what does this mean for us?  What does this mean for us in HR?  What's everyone else doing?  What should we be thinking about?  What should we be concerned about?  What does this mean.  And so, this has really been changing, like many things have, the role of the people analytics leader in the last year or so.   

There's a lot more opportunities for people analytics now partner with cross-functional teams in the organisation, so enterprise analytics teams, enterprise data and AI teams, because in order to scale AI initiatives, those partnerships are really important and HR is joining part of the organisation in terms of solving what are the most valuable use cases, what will the return on that investment be, what should the prioritisation be and where should the investments be made.  And then, it's really the opportunities that AI presents to really get into more personalisation, so more personalised solutions for employees, that result ultimately in a better employee experience.  That's the opportunity, but of course, it has to be done in the right way.  And then, that dovetails quite nicely into democratisation. 

So, what we mean by democratisation is the way that analytics and insights reach, get into the hands of users.  But there's a real challenge facing our field at the moment.  So, we in people analytics have become very good at developing products, we've really become good at that over the years.  But where we need to focus on and where we are not so good at is driving the adoption of those products by the users.  And, David, there's a fantastic podcast interview that you did with Phil Wilburn, who's the Head of People Analytics at Workday, and he really talks to this, what he calls 'crises of adoption'.  And this is a really, really important area for us to focus on.  It encompasses lots of things.  It's about having a user-centric design in the first place; it's about personalised solutions, not just one-size-fits-all; and it's about getting the insights into the hands of users, so managers, employees, leaders, HR colleagues, right at the point where they need that data to make the decision.  That's the challenging part.  It's not just about rolling out a tool and then you're done. 

Then, of course, it's all of the change management that goes around driving the adoption, so the communications, the internal marketing, selling the 'what's in it for me' in terms of the user, why should I use this product, establishing champions, and like I mentioned, really baking it into how employees get work done and how the business runs.  At our Insight222 peer meeting in Copenhagen a couple of years ago, one of our clients summed it up perfectly.  They were looking at a solution for employees and they learned that the finished product is just the beginning.  And I think that really sums up the importance of focusing on adoption really well.   

[0:16:24] David Green: So, in terms of, maybe can we share an example with listeners of how leading companies are effectively leveraging AI in people analytics?  So, Naomi, why don't we start with you, because I know you've got a good example?   

[0:16:39] Naomi Verghese: Yeah, so there's lots of examples out there and actually, what we're trying to do at Insight222 is really surface these use cases with some of these companies that are a bit further ahead in HR on their journey, because it's really useful for everyone else to see what the art of the possible is.  But one that comes to mind is HSBC.  So, we partner really closely with HSBC and they were very kind enough to share this use case on a webinar we delivered last year.  But what the team there are doing is they're working with a chatbot. So, their chatbot is called ADA.  And the role of ADA is to scale insights to the organisation.  So, it leverages generative AI.  And what you can do is you can go into ADA and type questions.  So, for example, I might say, "Tell me how many employees there are in marketing in Singapore", and ADA will provide me the number.  And what ADA is really helping the organisation to achieve, and the people analytics team driving this, is it's scaling insights on a much greater scale, and of course, that's what AI enables. 

It's also accelerating the speed at which colleagues can access those insights as well.  It's a lot easier to type it into a chatbot and get an answer back instantly, rather than going into a dashboard to find it yourself.  And it also increases the personalisation that they're able to get as well.  Because of course, for each employee, ADA knows what business unit they're in, what data they should and shouldn't have access to, and all of that gets configured in the back end.  So, it's been really exciting to hear from the team at HSBC about what they've developed and their future plans for ADA as well. 

[0:18:27] David Green: Jonathan, any examples that particularly resonate with you? 

[0:18:31] Jonathan Ferrar: Yeah, the example that I love, and I only found out about this in the last year when we were doing the trends research in 2024, is an example from Schneider Electric.  They created what was called a Fair Pay Simulator.  So, essentially, global pay equity or pay equity in certain countries is a very important topic in society, in organisations, and there are regulations and guidelines for declaring pay equity in certain countries as well.  So, many companies look at this, but I think what Schneider Electric did that was interesting, they undertook advanced analytics to try and work out models that could look at variances in pay between gender, and looking at different options that exist when you're constructing compensation packages and things like that.  And they pulled all that together in models, and I know models I analytics have been around for decades, but what they did was they then added that into using AI and pulled it together into an app, which they call the Fair Pay Simulator.   

What this app does effectively is give users the possibility to simulate total compensation packages with various parameters when they're looking at creating compensation packages for individuals; but utilising in the background all of the data that exists around compensation across gender equity positions, and also looks at what the goals are of the organisation.  So, it starts recommending and giving suggestions for pay decisions, but based on real simulated options and which align with the organisation's goals.  And I think what I love about this is that Schneider Electric created an AI hub across the organisation back in 2021, before the hype of AI, using a lot of the skills that they had.  And it just goes to show that at an enterprise level, if you get your alignment right around these topics, that you can build some very, very powerful simulators and apps to help organisations achieve goals. 

But this one strikes me because it not only helps an organisation do things better, but it's a society challenge as well, and in its way, it's helping society and the communities in which Schneider Electric operates. 

[0:21:00] David Green: Yeah, very good.  And it's interesting, the World Economic Forum's Future of Jobs report was published a few weeks ago, and the number one skill now required in demand, I think it's 11,000 companies that they surveyed as part of this, is analytical thinking.  So, it's not just HR, it's other business functions as well.  And certainly, since we started the company in Insight222 back in 2017, it's one of the biggest challenges that People Analytics Leaders came to us then, and it's still one of the biggest challenges that People Analytics Leaders and Chief People Officers come to us now.  And Naomi, you led some research around this on what companies that are doing this well are doing in terms of building data, so in their HR functions.  What should Chief People Officers and HR professionals focus on? 

[0:21:51] Naomi Verghese: Yeah, David, so I think before we get into the skills, and Jonathan's touched on most of those already, the other thing to say is that role-modelling is really important.  So, I think this is one of the biggest findings that came out of our research on this topic, is that without role-modelling, then a programme of data literacy isn't necessarily going to be successful.  So, what we found is that in organisations where both the Chief Human Resources Officer and the HR leadership team role-model the use of people data and analytics, in those companies, 79% of those companies say that HR practitioners use people data, analytics and insights in their day-to-day jobs.  But in companies where that role-modelling doesn't exist, only 22% can say the same thing.  So, that's a really stark difference.   

I think the other thing to point out here is it's not just about the CHRO.  The HR leadership team have a really important role to play in this.  In some cases, they may be more influential, because particularly in large organisations, the CHRO is not accessible on a daily, and certainly not daily, but maybe not even weekly basis to the rest of the HR function, but they do have line of sight to their HR leadership team member and they do look to that person as their leader.  So, it's really important that that person is role-modelling these behaviours and leading this change.  Then, of course, we get into the skills that they need to develop.  Jonathan's mentioned some of these already.  And again, to emphasise, that some of these aren't new skills, they're skills that certainly HR business partners and HR COE specialists would potentially have already; but really, the collective that forms around data-driven capability, it's making actionable recommendations from insights, it's managing stakeholder relationships of the business, it's being able to consult with business leaders to get behind them.   

What that means is getting to the question behind the question and then using that to frame questions for analytics to answer and build hypotheses, interpreting insights from data reports and dashboards.  So, it's not just about pulling out data points, but what does that data mean?  What's the insight?  And then, of course, really important storytelling and telling stories using data.  So, yeah, they're the really key things there. 

[0:24:31] David Green: What do these trends mean for people analytics professionals?  What's their role in this process?   

[0:25:47] Naomi Verghese: Yeah, so People Analytics Leaders and their teams have a really important role in this.  So, another thing we found in our research, it's a great report, so I do recommend that people download it, it's a really useful asset; we found that programmes of upskilling are most likely to be effective when the People Analytics Leader is leading them.  Now, they may not be the only person leading them, they might be part of the partnership with learning, but the People Analytics Leader needs to be part of that spearheading of that programme.  And we also found that when the People Analytics Leader is, the level of investment that's secured, the importance that's attached to a programme of upskilling, it's much more likely to be in place.   

But there's skills involved in this as well for People Analytics Leaders.  There's an expectation of the People Analytics Leader to have executive impact and really be able to deliver change.  I mean, we're talking about cultural change programmes, this is what this is, and those are really complex to land and have a lasting impact.  So, we found that People Analytics Leaders, they need for this, and of course other things as well.  They need storytelling skills, they need consulting, influencing is really important.  They need to be able to influence their peers that this is important, and for investment as well.  They need to have the organisational acumen, understand across the HR function how this is going to impact different populations, what their own challenges are, and things like that, and then change management as well.  Change management is really big.  And it's similar for the people analytics team as well.  This is really where change management is significant.   

I think my advice to People Analytics Leaders and teams is do not underestimate the change management that's required in an endeavour like this.  And for people analytics, that applies not just to data literacy programmes, it also applies to what we were talking about earlier in terms of rolling out people analytics products and driving that adoption as well.   

[0:28:00] David Green: So, to Jonathan again, I know obviously we work with lots of organisations, HR leadership teams, HR professionals, HR business partners to kind of help them acquire these skills and use them practically, and you've delivered a lot of those, or you've led a lot of those initiatives as well.  So, from your experience, what have you found to be the most effective ways for HR and people analytics professionals to upskill?   

[0:28:29] Jonathan Ferrar: Add into what Naomi just said, one of the first things is making sure that you've got the right leadership in managing an upskilling programme.  And that means having the Chief Human Resource Officer sponsoring and leading from the front, it means having the HR leadership team involved in some level of education, education around upskilling their own skills, but also education around role-modelling data, and the use of data across the organisation.  And then there are, I would say, two other levels that are important.  There's a level of knowledge that, shall we call them client-facing HR business professionals need, so HR business partners, COE, HR managers, directors.  Typically, we're looking at consulting skills and visualisation, storytelling, stakeholder skills that Naomi just outlined.  But there's that level of education and it's not a quick fix.  This is not a one-hour digital programme.  This is a multi-hour over multiple weeks programme of learning and iterating, learning and iterating, learning and iterating, using case studies and simulation, things like that.  That's a really good way.  It's got to be done in a very complete way.   

Then, underneath that is a different tier of people.  It's more about data language, core data literacy, "Is the organisation speaking the same language?  Are we all talking about the same things?" and there might be some tools and processes that have to be put in place as well for that.  But I think it's sponsorship and leadership right at the top tier, HR leadership team, skills and role-modelling, I think it's a client facing team, the long-period complete education, and then there's the sort of thinner, but very extensive layer of upskilling around data languages, data literacy and things like that.  But I think you wrap it around, it is a programme.  Where we've seen this work really, really well in organisations is where it's over a multi-quarter period. 

[0:30:48] David Green: So, I think really listening to the both of you and knowing the work that we're doing at Insight222 and the conversations that I've had on the podcast, but also with clients of the Insight222 People Analytics Programme, people analytics isn't just about the insights you uncover, it's about the outcomes you deliver.  I think you talked, Jonathan, the shift from activities to outcomes earlier in the conversation.  And that's exactly what we're working on at the moment in our next book, The Value of People Analytics, which we'll really go in deep to explore how to deliver business value from people analytics with examples from leading companies.  Jonathan, is there anything you'd like to add to maybe get listeners excited about the book?   

[0:31:36] Jonathan Ferrar: Thank you, David.  I can see behind you on your shelf, you've got Excellence in People Analytics there, which is the book that was published in 2021.  You've even got the Italian and Korean versions there, which is very nice.  When we were writing that book, which was predominantly written in 2020, during the year the pandemic started, that was the seminal year, that was the year that people analytics rose dramatically in importance, and the CHRO rose dramatically in importance.  And what we have discovered since then, I guess, through all of our research and our interactions with companies, all three of us, we interact with collectively probably 400 companies a year, something like that, through our research, through our deep client interactions, and so on, is that many companies are doing a lot now, a lot more than they did pre-2020, a lot more than before the pandemic.  But what we're finding is, some companies, that delivers value, and some companies, it's delivering activity.  And what we're trying to do, David, as you're pointing to, is, what is it that organisations do when they actually deliver value?  And we talked a bit about that before in Leading Companies In People Analytics.   

So, yeah, we've got a new book coming out.  Hopefully, by the time of this podcast, it is on the shelf, shall we say, out there, and the platforms will have maybe given a little bit more insight into what that is.  But yeah, the book is called The Value of People Analytics.  We're taking a similar approach to how we wrote the other book, part theory, part case studies, what we found in the Excellence in People Analytics book, and actually what I found in Power of People back in 2017, when working with Nigel and Sheri, was the case studies bring it alive, but isn't case studies alone don't help because there needs to be structures and formats that can help people scale.  So, yeah, the book is about the value of people analytics.  It really talks about outcomes, it talks about it's not what you do, it's about what you deliver with what you do.  And if that's the strapline, I don't know whether that will be the strapline, but that is what it's about.  It's not about what you do in analytics, it's about what you deliver with what you do in analytics that's important.   

So, we'll explore these eight characteristics of Leading Companies in People Analytics, we'll explore value, where it's delivered, that's workforce value, value in analytics, building an analytical culture in HR, it's value as measured by financial outcomes, and it's value in society, companies working in communities, what is that societal value?  So, yeah, very exciting.  I mean, we're in the middle of writing now, or just started.  I mean, we'll probably be finished in the late spring.  And then, it will be on the shelves hopefully in, I don't know, Kogan Page tell us, hoping to be on the shelves in October of 2025.  So, that's a very exciting point, and let's see if it excites as much as we're excited about it. 

[0:34:46] David Green: So, last question, and I'm going to ask you both to look into your crystal balls a little bit here.  If we think about people analytics, and we've travelled a lot in five years, what do you see as the next frontier for people analytics in the next five years?  What are we talking about in 2030?  So, Jonathan, I'll let you go first. 

[0:35:07] Jonathan Ferrar: It's a really, really active area.  We have seen people analytics grow about 40% in pure volumes of just people, in the companies that we surveyed since 2020 to 2024, so in those five years.  From the early days back in 2010 that I was involved, it's grown immeasurably.  So, firstly, a very, very poor and very uninteresting fact is that I think in the next ten years or so, people analytics will grow tremendously more, but it will be more aggregated across the HR organisation and data literacy will go up.  I think what my prediction is that in ten years' time, I know, David, you talk of five to ten years, but in ten years' time, because often business, although we like to think business moves rapidly, it's often trends move slightly slower, but I see that in ten years' time, people analytics cases around improving financial value and business strategic value will be mainstream in business nomenclature.  I think that's what will happen in ten years.   

In five years, I think AI in a more modern way of looking at AI, will be an infused and integral part of analytics and human resources, such that we won't really be talking about them as specific things.  So, it would just be, "We have a… tool that does ABC", like the Schneider electric example I gave earlier, "We have a Fair Pay Simulator that helps us align our compensation planning with our strategic pay equity goals".  And underneath is analytics and AI.  But no one will talk about that, they'll just talk about the fact that there's a Fair Pay Simulator, or there might be a promotion planning tool, application system.  And we'll just talk about it as a process, as a system, so that the analytics, the advanced analytics and the AI is integral and part of it.  And I think in five years' time, we won't be talking about those as, "Has it got analytics?  How's it got AI?"  It's like, "That's just normal".  And we'll talk about applications and process improvements, and everything will be infused with analytics and everything will be infused with generative AI technology as normal.  I think that's what will happen in five years.   

But my excitement is more the ten-year goal that a CEO will just be talking naturally about people, topics and it's all infused and led by data.   

[0:37:59] David Green: Very good.  Naomi?  Yeah, so David, I think that there's so much change and disruption in the world at the moment.  It really has been for the last five years, the geopolitical situation, climate change, technological advances, and I don't see in the next five years any of that changing.  And we know that that's all disrupting the world of work as well.  So, people topics like culture and talent, they're going to continue to be board topics, and that's always going to mean a focus there for people analytics.  And I think it's well documented and talked about, David, in many of your podcast interviews you've had recently, that the war for talent is in fact a war for skills.  And of course, alongside this, AI is changing jobs as well.  And we're really only early on in understanding what that's going to be and all of the complexities that come with that.  So, the shape of the workforce and the skills that are in demand, they may not even exist in the marketplace, but organisations have got to figure out that skills challenge.  And of course, that's a broad topic as well.   

So, I think people analytics has a huge role to play in driving the organisation forward in the right direction, and I think that the work it does is really going to be shaped by these forces even more so than it is already.   

[0:39:31] David Green: And I'll just chuck one in.  I think with technology and demographics going the way they are, I think in five years' time, we will have proved, beyond doubt, I'm going to be brave on this, beyond doubt that investing in employee wellbeing actually has a positive impact on business results.  And maybe that's more of a wish than a prediction, but let's hope so.  Jonathan, Naomi, thank you so much for joining me on the Digital HR podcast today.  Last question for both of you, how can listeners stay in touch with you and find out more about all the great work we do at Insight222.  Naomi, I'll start with you and then, Jonathan, you can have the final word.   

[0:40:09] Naomi Verghese: Yeah, so listeners can follow me on LinkedIn.  I like to share lots there about the research that we're publishing and the events that we're delivering.  So, please go and follow me there.  Also, encourage you to go to the Insight222 website into what we do and into our research, and you can download many of the reports that we've talked about.  I know, David, you're going to share some of the resources; and also, the MyHRfuture blog as well is a great resource.  We post a lot about what we're doing there as well.  So, yeah, those are the main ways.   

[0:40:40] David Green: Thank you, and Jonathan?   

[0:40:41] Jonathan Ferrar: Yeah, I mean similar to Naomi, all those things.  But just please connect with me on LinkedIn, that's the easiest.  I think I'm the only Jonathan Ferrar on LinkedIn.  There aren't too many of us with this name in the world.  So, I look forward to accepting those invitations and connecting with people.  You can get a hold of me via LinkedIn, or just jonathan.ferrar@insight222.com.  I mean, send me an email.  I like to connect with people all over the world and meet at conferences and events. 

[0:41:13] David Green: Thank you both for being guests on the show and, yeah, enjoy the rest of your day and have a good weekend. 

[0:41:18] Jonathan Ferrar: Thank you.  Thank you very much. 

[0:41:19] Naomi Verghese: Thanks, David, thanks for having us.