What does it mean to ‘fail’ well? How can you use the art of ‘failing’ to create a thriving organisation? What metrics do you need to measure to gauge whether you are failing well?  

As we mark the 200th episode of the Digital HR Leaders, David Green welcomes back Amy Edmondson, a renowned professor at Harvard Business School and a leading voice on psychological safety to explore these very questions. Tune in as they discuss: 

• The evolution of psychological safety in a post-pandemic world. 

• How to effectively embed psychological safety into organisational culture to support innovation and healthy experimentation. 

• Insights from Amy's latest book, "Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well," including the three failure archetypes. 

• Strategies for HR to overcome the fear of failure. 

• The importance of distinguishing between good and bad failure. 

• Advice for HR and people leaders on embedding a failure culture within their organisations. 

• How data can be used to gauge whether an organisation is "failing well." 

Whether you are a HR Leader aiming to innovate and overcome growth challenges, or are simply interested in the science of psychological safety, this episode is a must-listen. 

Support from this podcast comes from HiBob, who brings us Bob, the most usable enterprise HCM according to Nucleus Research. Bob, is rated the most useable HCM solution in Nucleus Research's 2024 Enterprise HCM Value Matrix.  

Bob delivers tangible results for organisations through ease of use and fast setup, like for this US-based CRM vendor that achieved a 228% ROI. Need proof? Read how Bob increased productivity and reduced software costs by downloading the Nucleus ROI study here.  

Links to Resources: 

• Amy Edmondson on LinkedIn: Amy Edmondson 

• Amy’s Book: Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well 

• HiBob Platform: HiBob 

• MyHRFuture Academy: MyHRFuture 

• Insight222: Insight222 

[0:00:00] David Green: Today, I have a very special guest.  She is known for her pioneering work on psychological safety.  She is also a renowned professor at Harvard Business School.  It has been four years since she last joined us on the show, and today I am thrilled to welcome back Amy Edmondson.  Psychological safety is such an important concept in creating a company culture that not only thrives, but is built for innovation and resilience.  We've seen increases in distributed teams, geopolitical instability, and economic volatility, as well as the accelerated integration of AI into the workplace.  I'm interested in understanding how these events are changing the way we approach psychological safety, but most importantly, how organisations can effectively embed psychological safety into their culture to allow for more failure in experimentation and support innovation.   

Amy's most recent book, Right Kind of Wrong: Science of Failing Well, serves as an essential guide for how leaders and everyone can embrace human fallibility and learn how to practice failure wisely.  In this episode, Amy will introduce us to the three failure archetypes and provide actionable insights on how HR can overcome the fear of failure.  We'll explore why failure carries such a negative connotation, how to differentiate between good and bad failures, and how to foster a culture that embraces productive failure.  With that, let's get the conversation with Amy started. 

As well as giving an introduction to yourself, Amy, what have we learned about psychological safety in a hybrid world since the pandemic? 

[0:02:02] Amy Edmondson: So, I think what we've learned over the time in between about psychological safety and remote work, is that it's hard and it's challenging.  I think there's an easy assumption that remote work is just like in-person work, and you can just be yourself in the same way, and it'll have the same effect.  And I just think that we've learned that isn't really quite true.  The shortest way to say this is that the same phenomena apply, but you must take them more seriously, you must work harder to overcome hurdles.  If you think about, psychological safety is fundamentally about whether people believe that it's easy, expected, welcome, possible to speak up quickly and honestly with questions, concerns, mistakes, dissenting views.  All of the things that make work well are not natural or easy to do in a social system, particularly a social system that's a hierarchy.  And so we are predisposed to hold back in any work environment, to you know wait and see.   

The hurdles or the barriers are even greater when we are engaging remotely, as you and I are in fact today, in part because the subtle cues that come from body language are less available.  So, if you're a great manager and in a real face-to-face meeting, you will likely notice that someone looks puzzled or looks maybe anxious, and you might say, "Hey, what's on your mind, David?"  And in in most remote platforms, especially once you're beyond two people, you're not going to be able to be aware, you don't have as much of a sixth sense.  So, you may be less likely to remember to invite the quiet voices in.  So, we're at risk.  We're at risk of missing important content that stays inside people's heads. 

[0:04:07] David Green: And I guess it means that as a manager or as an employee, there needs to be more intentionality around it, doesn't it?  I guess that's not necessarily a new skill, but it's a skill that we need to enhance as managers. 

[0:04:22] Amy Edmondson: I think intentionality is a very important part of it.  And then, like it or not, little structures and tools become an important part of it.  So that, if you know that you're at risk of missing things, then you want to put in place structures, rituals, routines, what have you, that will lower that risk.  So, for example, you might routinely do a series of check-ins around the screen, right, it might be something you build into the process where, "Okay, David, what do you think?  Amy, what do you think?"  Or you say, "Okay, now we're going to take five minutes to process what we've heard and chat in some unvarnished thoughts".  I'm agnostic about exactly what you do, but it's more than just having the intention to do it, it's actually the practice of Doing it.  

[0:05:13] David Green: Well obviously, Amy, your work over the years has helped really bring the topic of psychological safety, advance the topic of psychological safety.  I won't embarrass you by talking about the Thinkers 50, other than to say that the fact you've been ranked number 1 two years in a row is a testimony to your work.  Not many people know the origin story, which you talk about at the beginning of your recent book, Right Kind of Wrong.  I think I've got the pre-release copy here.  I know it came out -- 

[0:05:39] Amy Edmondson: That's the US version right behind me.   

[0:05:41] David Green: The US version behind you!  I know it came out about a year ago now, I think.   

[0:05:47] Amy Edmondson: September of 2023.   

[0:05:49] David Green: September of 2023.  Okay, so, Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well.  I'm sure our listeners would love, those of you maybe haven't got the book yet, I'm not sure that's that many of them actually, but I'm sure our listeners would love you to share the story that you outlined at the start of the book. 

[0:06:04] Amy Edmondson: Yes, it's a book about failure and the "Right Kind of Wrong" refers to what I call intelligent failures, which are failures in new territory in pursuit of a goal with a hypothesis where the failures are not catastrophic, they're right size.  They're no bigger than necessary to get the next step, the new knowledge that you need to make progress toward a goal.  And so, I decided to open the book, both as a kind of compelling hook for people, with an intelligent failure of my own that took place decades ago now, and in fact is the origin story of psychological safety.  And that failure story was me, starring me, as a second-year PhD student engaged in a research project, my first real field research project, where I was spending time in the field, talking to real people, surveying real people.  It happened to be two hospitals.  And the overarching context was that the hospitals were engaged in a study of medication error and adverse drug events that occur as a result.  And the principal investigators were primarily interested in assessing the rate of error.   

I was primarily interested, at their invitation, in assessing how team properties, teamwork, quality of teamwork, quality of team leadership, impacted error rates.  And my strong and formal hypothesis going into the study was that better teams, assessed according to the team diagnostic survey, would have lower error rates.  I don't think I need to explain to your listeners why I thought that would be reasonable --.   

[0:07:48] David Green: Seems a reasonable hypothesis. 

[0:07:49] Amy Edmondson: -- hypothesis.  And healthcare, especially 24/7 tertiary care operations, are very complicated, involve lots of handoffs, lots of communication, and that's the very definition of teamwork, right, so that if you're a better team -- and I didn't doubt the validity of the team diagnostic survey.  And unfortunately, when I got the data, trained medical investigators were collecting the data on error, largely by going sort of unit to unit, door to door, if you will, to ask people and find out what happened this week.  Meanwhile, I had the survey data, so nicely independent from a research perspective, no common method bias. 

To my, at first, delight, I had a statistically significant correlation between the two datasets.  And then I looked more closely and realised, to my horror, that the correlation was in the wrong direction.  In other words, the better teams appeared to have higher, not lower, error rates.  I now use that word "appeared" deliberately, because at first glance, I just thought, well, how can this be?  How can better teams be producing more errors?  After some serious panic and wild-eyed thoughts about dropping out of graduate school, I forced myself, as one should, to think.  And in thinking, it occurred to me that maybe the better teams don't make more mistakes, maybe they're more willing to report them, right, to speak up honestly about them.  It is very likely, I couldn't prove it in that first study, but it was very likely that what we didn't have was different competence levels, what we had was different reporting norms.  And if so, I wanted then to go off and look at other companies where this wasn't an accident, it wasn't a failure, it was like, if there's such a thing as interpersonal climate in a team, (a) can I measure it; (b) if I can, does it predict anything like team performance or team learning behaviour?   

Long story short, in fact in other settings, that worked out quite well.  And that gave birth to a rather large and growing literature on psychological safety. 

[0:10:05] David Green: Obviously most people instinctively fear failure.  It tends to put them off from pursuing their ambitions maybe.  Why do you think people have such a negative connotation against failure? 

[0:11:49] Amy Edmondson: I think it's twofold.  One is, it's learned.  We start to get the message in elementary school and by the time you're a working adult, it's solidified that success is good, failure is bad; you want to look good, not bad; you want people to think you're smart and capable, not incapable and not smart.  So, part of it is learned.  And then I think part of it is probably deep in our evolutionary history, our DNA, that there is a sense that if you're going to get rejected by others, you literally could starve, you literally could be at risk of death due to hazards out in environment.  So, we care deeply about what people think of us even at a sort of cellular level, not just because we learned some of the wrong lessons in school.   

[0:12:44] David Green: So, as a subtitle to Right Kind of Wrong intimates, why learning to fail can teach us to thrive, there is a way of failing well, and you've alluded to that already, Amy.  What is the difference between good failure and bad failure? 

[0:12:59] Amy Edmondson: One word is preventability.  So, in a way, good failure is theoretically not preventable.  And that's because we just literally don't have the knowledge yet that we need to get the result we're trying to get.  And bad failure is theoretically, and not always, but mostly, practically preventable.  And why is it preventable?  Because it occurs in terrain where we already have the knowledge for how to get a particular result we're trying to get.  And when we don't get it, it could be because someone was not paying attention, made a mistake, maybe wasn't well trained in a particular procedure.  But now and then, there will be some just exogenous factor that's just plain bad luck.   

[0:13:49] David Green: It's a bit like, we had a failure when we recorded our podcast on my side four years ago, because my 10-year-old daughter at the time decided to run away with the dog, and we had to postpone and reconvene and do it another time.  It was completely unforeseen. 

[0:14:05] Amy Edmondson: Completely unforeseen, but not quite intelligent. 

[0:14:08] David Green: No, definitely not quite intelligent! 

[0:14:10] Amy Edmondson: It's either complex or basic, in that it's probably basic because it's a single cause, utterly unpredictable.  So, I don't want to say, and I don't, that all basic failures are preventable, but most of them are.  But yes, that was something absolutely unforeseen, absolutely important.  I mean, stopping the recording at that point was minimus, did not matter, right?  No real cost there, but going and finding the missing daughter was very important indeed. 

[0:14:40] David Green: And so, as we've just kind of discussed there, Amy, not all failures are the same.  And in Right Kind of Wrong, you highlight three failure archetypes.  Could you elaborate on each and maybe provide some best practice on how we can learn and prevent them? 

[0:14:56] Amy Edmondson: So, right kind of wrong is the intelligent failure.  So, that is one of the three types.  And an intelligent failure is a failure, an undesired result, in new territory, in pursuit of a goal, with a hypothesis and no larger than necessary.  We can unpack those if you want.  The other two types are basic failure and complex failure.  Basic failures have a single cause, usually human error, and they occur in familiar territory.  Complex failures are the perfect storms.  They are multi-causal, and they will have a handful of factors that come together in combination to produce a failure.  Generally, any one of the factors on its own would not be large enough to cause a failure.  It's the way they come together.   

So, an example, we were talking about medication errors.  Adverse drug events in hospitals far more often than not qualify as complex failures.  And just a handful of small deviations from perfect happen to line up in just the wrong way to let an overdose through or to let a medication, intended for one patient, go to another.  It's not just sort of a single person on the front line made a mistake, it's usually something that can be traced back to factors happening in another department where the drugs are stored or labelled, etc.  And when you really unpack these things that go wrong, you find a handful of factors that unfortunately occurred at the same time. 

[0:16:37] David Green: And of course, one of the key things when we're assessing whether something has succeeded or failed, and if we want to learn from the failure, is data.  So, that makes me think a little bit about HR as a function.  Now, I'm generalising here a lot, and this is becoming less and less so, certainly in the work we're doing at Insight222 that we see.  Generally though, HR as a function, there's a tendency to say we're not data people, we're people people.  As a result, maybe the fear of failure in this area may put them off from adopting data literacy, for example, into their practices.  How can we reframe failure to help adopt practices or pursue a strategy that we ultimately fear? 

[0:17:21] Amy Edmondson: I think the magic word there is "reframe".  And it's about reframing failure to be more accurate, a more scientific understanding of failure, and really an appreciation for the three types, and a special appreciation for truly the intelligence of intelligent failure.  It is not sloppy or wasteful to have intelligent failures, it's smart.  It's smart and necessary.  So, you must take that to heart.  So, the reframe is to start thinking about it in a new way so that you can feel about it in a new way.  I mean, I think our emotions follow the way we think and we must rethink more often than not, right, because our taken-for-granted, habitual thoughts are usually a little bit out of whack with the new reality.  And I think that HR folks today appreciate two things.  One is that there's an awful lot of data analytics that we do need to love and use wisely; and also, that qualitative data are data as well.   

When we say we're people people, we're saying that we believe we can learn from people, we can find out what's working, what isn't, we can step back and consider that systematically and then make some changes or some experiments that help us learn more.  So, I don't think it's helpful to separate data and people.  In my view, it's all data, and our interaction today qualifies as data.   

[0:19:09] David Green: And that kind of brings us a little bit full circle to what we talked about at the start, around hybrid working and measuring and understanding psychological safety and team effectiveness and culture.  And I just wondered what your thoughts are around the importance of employee listening, and how it can highlight good and bad examples of psychological safety and team effectiveness, as it relates to failure maybe?  And then, maybe that takes it all the way back to your inspiration, I guess, for the work that you've been doing for these last 30-plus years. 

[0:19:51] Amy Edmondson: It's hard to overemphasise the importance of listening.  And listening, as so many have said, is not about just being quiet while someone else is speaking.  It's listening to understand.  And if you are a professional whose job is to understand the employee experience, to enable employees to team up to do great work together in pursuit of the organisation's mission, listening is a really critical part of your job.  And I think this does tie very tightly to the conversation on data, and on remote work as well, because listening today doesn't mean just in my one-on-ones, I'm going to do my best to be a good listener.  Listening means using whatever tool I can possibly have at my disposal to listen to understand.  Some of those tools will be quantitative, some of them will involve the survey data, some of them will involve tests and pilots and experiments, some will be focus groups, some will be one-on-ones.  But whatever you're doing, your entire heart and soul is in listening, which really means in learning.  You're never under the illusion that what we know today will be fully complete for what we need to do and know tomorrow.   

So, measurement plays a critical role here and measuring psychological safety, for instance, and maybe, for instance, measuring the impact of psychological safety on various degrees of hybridity or remoteness, is an important thing to do.  And I mean, I really want to encourage people not to think about measures as targets.  It's not about what level of psychological safety do you have and is that good enough, can we check that box?  It's all relative.  Measuring psychological safety is part of listening, it's not part of passing the test.  Because different companies may have different levels based on just assumptions that people have.  So, I think when you are measuring psychological safety and other things, you're looking for trends.  The most important and powerful use of that measure is to find bright spots and areas where more attention is needed within your organisation.  So, use it simply as a starting point to understand where your help is needed, but not as a grading system for how people are doing.   

[0:22:37] David Green: How can organisations effectively embed psychological safety into their culture, measuring it of course is a start, to allow for more experimentation and permission to fail? 

[0:23:40] Amy Edmondson: So, I think it starts with a sufficient and compelling ambition.  I mean, it's double-down on purpose or double-down on the aspiration or the mission of the company, because all of what we're talking about, David, is hard.  And we will need to both work hard and take risks, and neither of those activities are always pleasant.  So, for me to be willing to work hard and take risks, I need to remind myself and really believe that what we're doing matters.  It matters to our customers, it matters to the world, what have you.  And so, I think it does start with what's at stake here.  And then, because that ambition is high, or the aspiration is high, that means we can't do this in our sleep.  Like, you can't say, "Yeah, we got this".  No, we don't, right?  In order to achieve this exciting, important thing, we're going to have to discover things we don't yet know, discover how to do things we don't yet know.  So, you're basically clarifying the gap, doubling-down on the importance, clarifying the gap, and then creating space and encouragement for experimentation, which at this point is absolutely necessary.  You can't opt out of experimentation if you've got a gap and you want to close it.   

This is all cognitive.  But now we want to create time and space, not your entire work week, but some portion of your time must be spent taking smart risks.  And how you respond to those failures really matters, right?  Do you say, "Wow, this is really useful new information", and pause to think, "Where does it suggest we go from here?"  Or is it just, "I can't believe this happened again".  And your response, especially as a leader, matters greatly.  So, having a positive learning-oriented response to the disappointments is a really important part of this story. 

[0:25:48] David Green: Thinking about the audience from a lead HR professional background, what else would you advise HR and people leaders to do to embrace a failure culture? 

[0:26:00] Amy Edmondson: I think it starts with calling attention to uncertainty or novelty or interdependence or all three, that never stop reminding people of the nature of the work you do, the nature of the reality you do it in, because our spontaneous mental models are kind of remnants from the industrial era, where people still use words.  It always surprises me like, "You've got to hit your targets".  It's like, I think we should be saying, "You should try to hit your targets", but you're not in charge here, right?  The universe is going to do what the universe does.  You should work hard.  It's a little bit the growth mindset idea, right?  We should focus on process, but we should also focus on the context in which the process happens, and remind people, this is not to let you off the hook, it's to make sure you're willing to speak up honestly, frankly, when things happen.  And so, clarify, even sometimes with humour, but certainly acceptance.  This is reality today, novel, complex, challenging.  And so, "Whoa, what's it going to take?"   

I think it also requires developing the actual skills of inquiry, of asking good, open-ended questions.  And then, as we were talking about earlier, listening to understand, having a thoughtful response.  And thoughtful doesn't mean Pollyanna, agree with everything, everybody gets a trophy, it means, "I hadn't thought about it that way", or, "I see it differently".  And you're treating people with respect. 

[0:27:40] David Green: How can we use data to gauge whether we are failing well?   

[0:27:47] Amy Edmondson: That's a good question.  I think, at this point, I don't have a formal quantitative survey tool to gauge that.  So, at this point, what you'd have to do is assess the percent of what I'm just going to call red and green, where red is problems, failures, concerns, bumps in the road; and green is all's well, successes, targets hit, etc.  And then pause to think, what is the nature of our industry or our project?  Is it high or low uncertainty?  Are we on one extreme, an assembly line, where we can be darn sure that a reliable little vehicle is rolling off the end every minute; or are we in a scientific laboratory trying to develop a brand new cure for type 1 diabetes, where we can't be sure at all that we're going to have that done in a minute, or if ever.  So, that's a huge spectrum, most of us are somewhere in between.  But being thoughtful about, what is the actual relationship between effort and guaranteed success.  Most of the time, it's not 100%.  And so, once you pause to contemplate that, I think you're then in the position of saying, "Oh, if everything's green, then we're probably either not doing our job, we're sort of playing not to lose rather than playing to win, or things are going wrong and I'm not hearing about it".   

So, I think that the idea of data starts very qualitatively with a sense of, are we getting enough red?  Are we experimenting enough?  Are we learning enough?  And that's a little bit of a judgment call, right?  What "enough" means in your context is going to be up to you.  But thinking about this often and thinking systematically about it I think really matters. 

[0:29:54] David Green: That's really good.  So, Amy, before we head to the question of the series, which is the question we're asking everyone on this particular series of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, is there anything we should keep our eyes open for in terms of your next area of research? 

[0:30:11] Amy Edmondson: Yeah!  So, I'm teaming up with Mark Mortensen at INSEAD to really double-down on, how do we make work work?  So, this is a people-manager project writ large.  How do we make work work in the new world of work; and more specifically, we're looking at the employee experience in an integrated way, right?  What is the employee's connection to purpose, to the culture, to growth and development, and finally to the material aspects of the job, where and when I have to work and how much I'm compensated for that.  And our premise is that most of these areas, all four important areas of interest for people managers, are looked at in isolation.  There are books on purpose, there are books on culture, but the interrelationships among these four factors are as if not more important.   

The way your culture is impacting your growth and development opportunities, for example, is truly important.  Just taking the example of remote work, it's undeniable that growth and development mentoring opportunities take a hit when we're not together.  So, what do we do about that?  How do we plan for that?  How do we overcome that?  What do we design to best make work function as it should? 

[0:31:40] David Green: Really interesting.  And any early findings or hypotheses that you're able to share at the moment?  You've just recently had, I think this month actually, had an article published in Harvard Business Review, which I included in my monthly LinkedIn newsletter, the Data-Driven HR Monthly, and I think it was, you talked about the importance of framing in the context of return to office, I believe. 

[0:32:01] Amy Edmondson: Yes, yes.  And we don't mean to imply that it's all about communication, but it's because framing, as we've talked about throughout this conversation, framing affects how we think.  And when we reframe to be more realistic and accurate, we can think better and we can sort of have better actions, better decisions.  But our argument there was, whether by design or not, we argue not, the return-to-office conversation has been framed as a war, framed as a battle, framed as an us-versus-them conversation.  And we say, if that's the frame, implicitly or explicitly, you're in trouble, because nobody likes to lose a battle, so that will engender natural resistance; and in fact digging your heels in rather than the -- so we say, you've got to reframe it with a learning mindset.  You've got to reframe this as what works, and it's not us versus them.   

So, what we're finding is that there are real costs and people recognise them when you start having honest conversations.  There's wonderful convenience to working at home.  There's also some real costs and it does not take long for anyone to see them.  And everything, from the bonds of affection to the mentoring to the just simple change of scene to the excitement you can sometimes feel in a great team meeting in a room, which is not to say you have to do that day in and day out, but it is to say design it thoughtfully, and I think our headline is, "Design thinking", design thinking that carefully weighs in, first and foremost, the mission of the organisation, and secondly, the long-term, not just short-term, needs of employees, and make sure you design for those. 

[0:34:02] David Green: Great, well, as you find out more, Amy, I'd love to invite you and Mark back onto the podcast at some point to share what you're finding, because I think you're right.  Certainly the hypothesis, you bring those things together, the sum will be greater than the whole, I think.  So, very interesting.  So now, as I said, for the question of the series, how can HR leaders use analytics to uncover and address inclusivity gaps? 

[0:34:34] Amy Edmondson: Honestly, I think that your listeners know more about that than I do.  We ask, right, I think there's a multi-method, I think survey data will give you insight as well.  I think focus groups and one-on-ones give you insight as well.  I do, where I talk about reframing, in inclusivity, really being included, it's easy for people to mistake their experience with intentions on the part of others.  In other words, I may not feel included and it is almost 100% spontaneous to then think, "Someone is excluding me".  And I would say more often than not, that is not the case.  There isn't anyone who woke up that morning figuring out how to exclude you.  Your experience is real and important, but as soon as we attribute it to intentions on the part of others, it becomes almost impossible to fix it.   

So, if everyone could kind of pause and realise, this is much more likely an ignorance problem than an intentional problem, then we can start learning together. 

[0:35:52] David Green: And of course there's a link between that feeling of inclusivity and that feeling of psychological safety as well. 

[0:35:59] Amy Edmondson: No question.  Yes, so I mean I think psychological safety is a crucial link to move from diversity to inclusion.  Diversity, you do through hiring; and inclusion, you do through creating learning environments, which is more or less what psychological safety is.  And learning environments are two-way.  Learning environments are where I'm learning about you and you're learning about me, and all of us are together learning about the customer or the needs or the challenges that lie ahead. 

[0:36:27] David Green: Very good.  Well, Amy, as ever, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you.  Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge with listeners of the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  Before we part ways, can you let listeners know how they can contact you, follow you on social media, and find out more about your work? 

[0:36:47] Amy Edmondson: LinkedIn is a place I try to stay very active.  And amycedminson.com, I try to keep that page updated with recent podcasts and articles and other events. 

[0:37:01] David Green: Well, you're doing a much better job of keeping your personal website updated than mine.  I was laughing, I was joking to my wife yesterday that I don't think I've updated it since the pandemic, which is a little bit frightening. 

[0:37:12] Amy Edmondson: It's so hard.  There's just way too many things to check in and update, but I do my best as a fallible human being in an imperfect world. 

[0:37:20] David Green: And you're pretty active on LinkedIn, actually.  I see some of your posts.  I think the craze is "viral".  So, I mean it's great because I think since the pandemic, your work on psychological safety, it's really, really advanced.  Not your work's advanced, but the attention on your work has really advanced, I'm saying, hasn't it?  

[0:37:42] Amy Edmondson: And that, I completely agree, and that attention has meant other people doing work, which I love.  In fact, so many advances in this field are not mine, they're other people's, and I'm sent manuscripts and links all the time that I think are just first-rate work, and someone else did it.  So, that's been the pandemic or broader forces, diversity, inclusion, I think have brought more attention to this and then that's brought more thoughtful people into developing it. 

[0:38:17] David Green: And long may it continue.  So, Amy, thank you very much.   

[0:38:21] Amy Edmondson: Thank you.