In this week’s podcast, we will go on a journey with Madhura Chakrabarti, Global Head of People Insights and Analytics at Syngenta, on how she has successfully upskilled Syngenta’s HR function into data fluency.

This conversation will help you learn more about:

• The importance of upskilling the HR function to be more data literate

• The different learning pathways taken by Syngenta to help create a more data-driven HR function.

• The impact of having a data-driven HR function has had on Syngenta and Madura’s essential advice for those embarking on a similar journey.

Support for this podcast comes from Charthop. You can learn more by visiting: charthop.com/digitalhr

David Green: Today, I'm delighted to welcome Madhura Chakrabarti, Global Head of People Insights and Analytics at Syngenta, to talk to us about how Syngenta has successfully upskilled its HR function to be more data fluent.

Madhura Chakrabarti: In order for the people analytics team to be successful, we need their entire function to be data fluent. Now, by data fluent, I don't mean they need to be PhDs in statistics or that all of them need to run regressions, but they should be able to read dashboards, they should be able to think analytically, they should be able to understand what's the difference between data and anecdotal data.

We may have the best dashboards ever, but if the users are not data-driven, or if they're not wanting to see data that is aggregated or that gives different slice-and-dice than what they already have, no amount of advanced dashboards is going to move the needle.

David Green: Along with the importance of helping HR to be more data fluent, Madhura and I also delve into the different pathways taken to help create a more data-driven HR function, the impact this has had on Syngenta, and of course, Madhura's key advice for those embarking on a similar journey. I've been fortunate to know Madhura for quite a few years now, so it's really great to finally have her on the podcast.  

For those of you that have not yet had the opportunity to hear about Madhura and her fantastic career background, I started our conversation by asking her to share how she got to where she is today and more about her role at Syngenta.

Madhura Chakrabarti: In terms of my background, I lead the People Insights and Analytics team at Syngenta since November 2018, so that makes it almost four years at this point. Before this, I was an industry analyst working for Deloitte, doing industry research and advising clients on how to do people analytics and employee engagement. 

Before that, I was with Dell Technologies back in Austin, Texas, where I led the employee engagement programme. 

So, as you can see, I've toggled quite a bit between external and internal roles but have always been with people data and employee listening.

I'm a psychologist by training. As far as my current team, they sit within the people and org development organisation that also looks at other topics, like D&I culture, leadership development, and learning, for all of Syngenta Group.

David Green: And before we really dive into the conversation around upskilling HR, I'd love to hear how your background prior to Syngenta helped you as you took on the Head of People Analytics role because obviously, you analysed the market as a whole when you were at Deloitte, and obviously you had a background in employee listening and looking at people data prior to that with Dell as well.

Madhura Chakrabarti: I was exposed to a plethora of companies that ranged from companies that are just starting to do people analytics, and on the other end of the spectrum, we had companies who had done it for almost 10 or 15 years, not under the title of people analytics but had done exactly the same kind of work for a while now. So, that exposure really helped me understand what does maturity look like and also the foundational issues that most of the organisations face today; so for example, how do we get data in a single platform, or how do we get team data? 

So, that's still a major challenge that organisations face today.

So, having known that and having also seen what good looks like, or in other words, out of the possible for some of these very advanced companies, that gave me a real picture of what the entire spectrum looks like, and also placed Syngenta where we are across the entire spectrum, and have a fairly good idea of what lies ahead of us, in order to go up the maturity model. So, that's how I think it helped me.

David Green: You've done a lot of work at Syngenta on upskilling HR in data literacy and analytic thinking. Why do you think it's important that both HR leaders and HR professionals are data fluent for themselves and the organisation?

Madhura Chakrabarti: David, you would agree that most organisations are undergoing a digital transformation, right? I haven't met a company in the last five years that isn't going through one. 

Our business, or our company, is no exception. We are investing more and more in data and digital tools, and I'm talking about the business units specifically that will eventually help our farmers and growers and distributors across the world make better decisions. So, it's more about helping them to make the right decision around soil, around their crops, about climate, more than just bringing the right product to them.

If the organisation is getting to the point where you're using data and technology to help farmers make better decisions, HR as a function cannot lag behind. And, if we were to operate in the same ecosystem, we cannot be a function where we are still not data literate, or we are not using data in our day-to-day work, or we cannot speak the language. So, in order to be in the same system and operate hand-in-hand, HR has to be data fluent. So, that's number one.

Also, just from the HR function's perspective, the tools and technologies that we are investing in, we cannot get the full value unless the users are data savvy or we are able to think analytically. So, in order to get the full ROI of all the tools and technology that we are investing in, we absolutely have to invest in the users being more data fluent.

Then third, it really helps HR professionals be part of strategic discussions because in one of the analyses we ran a year, year-and-a-half back, it was about understanding the predictors of sales performance, so what predicts better sales performance; but mostly, people-related predictors. And what we found was when we were presenting it to the business team, our HRBP sent us a separate message late saying this was the first time that we were part of a strategic sales discussion as HR.

So, if we want to do that more and more, we should be data fluent, and we are in a position where we offer unique insights based on the people data that we have access to.

David Green: Why is it so important as a people analytics leader or people analytics professional listening to this that we help our colleagues in HR become more comfortable with data?

Madhura Chakrabarti: I fundamentally believe that the success of People Insights and Analytics team lies or depends on data-literacy of the entire function. 

If you remember, David, the industry study that we published a few years back at Deloitte also said the same thing, that in order for the people analytics team to be successful, we need the entire function to be data fluent. Now, by data fluent, I don't mean they need to be PhDs in statistics or that all of them need to run regressions, but they should be able to read dashboards, they should be able to think analytically, they should be able to understand what's the difference between data and anecdotal data.

So, for example, time and again, we have found that we may have the best dashboards ever, but if the users are not data-driven, or if they're not wanting to see data that is aggregated or that gives different slice-and-dice than what they already have, we are not going to be successful if we don't have users going to the dashboards; no amount of advanced dashboards is going to move the needle. 

So, that's one.

The other thing that we keep encountering is when HRBPs especially are data-driven; they make the connection between business problems and the People Insights and Analytics team centrally. So, for example, a year back, we had this particular instance where there was a need to study collaboration patterns, and the HRBP at that point for that business unit actually said, "So, how are we going to measure if we are successfully collaborating or not?" For that, we need real data, instead of just a few leaders saying that "Yeah, I think people are collaborating". So, that HRBP particularly formed the connection between our team and the business unit, and that led to an org network analysis pilot study that we did with the business unit.

So, it's really critical that HRBPs, especially all HR functions ideally, are data literate to form those important connections and raise the right questions in the strategic discussions happening in the businesses.

David Green: Madhura, circling back to your recent project in upskilling HR, talk us through how you went about -- because I think you took a data-driven approach, which is fantastic; how you went about gathering the data to help drive your decision into how you would best approach this project, you know, what methods did you use to help you?

Madhura Chakrabarti: When we started with the project, we realised that it's really important to listen to the users of the product that we are building, or rather future users of the product that we are building, and also listen to external practitioners who have been on this journey before, because clearly, we weren't doing something for the first time, so let's learn from people who have done this, who have done this well, who have learned from it.

So we did a series of qualitative listening, and we call them YamJams, in other words, jam sessions in the Yammer platform, with the HR population where we asked three questions, and we said, "What does data fluency mean to you", and actually we also asked a fourth question, which was a more generic one, "How do you like to learn?" So, that guided us to design the end product, and I can talk more about that.

It was really important that we listened; I want to emphasise that. Again, looking back, ideally, I would have liked to go out with a survey, where we had some quantitative data and then coupled it with qualitative data, but at that point, there was a lot going on, and due to some other constraints that we had, we decided a survey wasn't the best thing at that point. The qualitative listening actually gave us quite a lot of rich insights, so I don't think we compromised a lot there.

David Green: I'd love to understand, Madhura, from that analysis that you did, what did you find that HR professionals wanted to learn, and what actions did you then take to help upskill your colleagues?

Madhura Chakrabarti: When we analysed all the responses that came in across those three or four questions that we asked, there were three themes that emerged very quickly and very clearly. The first one was a set of user needs that said, "I want to understand data enough to be able to see trends, gaps, issues from a higher level". So, these are people who are interested, but they only want to see trends; they only want to understand what the data is already showing them.

The second bucket was around users saying that, "I want to access relevant data, so I want to know the sources, I want to make sure that I know how to download it, and do some meaningful analytics, but I don't want to spend ages on it". 

So, these are people who don't really want to go deep.

The third bucket was around people who wanted to gain in-depth expertise, so these are future people analytics leaders or people analytics team members. To be fully transparent, we didn't have a whole lot of people or responses in this bucket. As the leader of people analytics, I kind of force-fed this a little bit because I also have to think about the future and the succession and how do we keep up this work and the momentum.

When they were asked how they learned or how they preferred to learn, there were some very clear themes emerging there as well. So, a bunch of people said, "I learn best through actual experience or projects. 

So, you put me on a project, it requires me to do new things, that's how I learn the best". Others said, "When I have a community or like-minded people, or I have a learning buddy, that's when I learn best".

Subsequently, we went ahead and built the first two pathways in-house in the learning platform that was recently launched in our organisation back then, and we addressed the first two buckets. So, the very first bucket that said, "I just want to understand data enough", we called it "the Information Consumer". The second one that said, "I want to get my hands dirty a little bit, want to source data and analyse that a little bit", we called it "the Insights Creator", and each pathway contains a specific set of topics, as per the user needs; and more importantly, it contains a mix of different learning activities.  

So, there are e-learning modules; there are case studies of advanced analytics work that we have done within the company at Syngenta and that has led to important decisions or important changes across the organisation. We have some introduction videos to our HR dashboards there. We also have the escape room game listed, where people can sign up, and that's actually an experiential game in person or virtual at this point; we just released a virtual version of that. So, as you can see, it was really important that we used different methods of learning to keep people's attention because that's what people said; they learn differently. So, we couldn't have just one type of material up there; we were very conscious of that.

David Green: What else has that helped you develop? I understand, for example, you've developed a community of practice as well. And again, for those listeners who don't understand what a community of practice is, if you could describe that and how you've embedded that from a people analytics perspective into a wider community, it's not just people analytics professionals at Syngenta?

Madhura Chakrabarti: Right, and I don't think I mentioned that the community of practice is also a very important element of one of the pathways. So we said, "If you're interested, sign up". And very honestly, when we put this together, we had a description of what we envisioned this community of practice to be doing, and we had a nice picture around it, and I said, "Sign up here"; it was one of the sections in the first pathway. That was last year, and now, we have 112 members. So, we went from zero to 112 in a year's time, and this is about forming a community of like-minded people. So, you don't have to be in HR, you don't have to be a people analytics expert, but as long as you are interested in data analytics and how to use them in a meaningful way, you can be part of the community.

It does a couple of things. 

One is people are free to post and discuss it on the virtual platform, the learning platform that we have, and we see some amount of activity there. But we also have, once in six weeks, a virtual session, a community of practice session, and I make sure that we have a very well-crafted agenda, where we either invite somebody from HR, from outside HR, from outside Syngenta, to talk about a data-related topic, and it doesn't have to be analysis that you've done.

For example, a couple of sessions back, we invited our Chief Data Scientist from our IT function, and he talked about what does it mean to have a data curiosity mindset and what does it mean to hire for a data curiosity mindset. And it is about generally uplifting the awareness around data, feeling more excited about it, and exchanging things that you have done, blockers that you are faced with in the company and seeing if anybody has solved this problem. So that way, we have gained a lot of momentum in the community of practice, and I would highly recommend forming one if you haven't, for those of us who are on the same journey.

David Green: And I guess what it also does, again speaking to other companies that have done this, you almost create those change agents, who are part of the community of practice, that advocate their data-driven approach and people analytics with their colleagues, and I guess that's another reason why communities of practice tend to grow. And it's a great opportunity, I guess, for you as a team to hear some of the challenges that people are facing, maybe in implementing some of the insights from people analytics, but also some of the challenges that the business is facing as well. 

So potentially, it provides a vehicle for identifying work for the team as well, I guess?

Madhura Chakrabarti: And that does regard another speaker we had from a business unit who was using our learning platform dashboard. So, the learning platform we have, we also have a dashboard saying how many users, from which business units, what are the top skills people are clicking or signing up for, what is the mood of learning that people are using the most, and this is across all materials in the learning platform, so not just the data fluency pathways.  

Instead of HR or our organisation talking time and again about, "We have launched a new learning pathway [or] learning platform, and you can go in there, and you can learn so many things", suddenly somebody from the business talking about how they use the learning dashboard to gain momentum, to encourage people to go into the platform and learn new skills, that made a lot of difference; it generated a lot of questions, and it was almost like a marketing activity for the learning platform.

David Green: It's a testament to the upskilling programme that you've put in place that people are intrigued, and I guess these are people that fall into the second and third categories, as you said, from when you identified what users were looking for, that they wanted to be part of this community of practice, they wanted to continue their learning, they wanted to actually use some of these skills within their day-to-day work as well.

So, two years on from when you first started the project, Madhura, I'd be, and I'm sure listeners would be as well, really interested in learning what the impact has the project had on driving for your team, for the HR function, and Syngenta as well?

Madhura Chakrabarti: A few things. One is we definitely see higher usage of the dashboards, the HR dashboards that we have, and that makes me really happy that people are actually curious about data. They're going in, trying to see what's out there, and we have done some sort of usage-type analysis, where we have seen there are some people who just go in and be there for like five or ten minutes and that's about it; then, there are these superusers who go in time and again for longer periods of time.  

So, clearly, people are going there for different uses, or maybe somebody just needs one data point to look at to include in a PowerPoint that they're working on. So, they're probably just going in, getting the gender ratio, and then coming out of the dashboard. Then there are the people who are going in to actually present about the latest workforce demographics to their leadership team. So, they're probably the ones who are staying there for a longer time.

What that also means is that we have a much higher number of suggestions to improve the dashboard because people never seem to be happy with the metrics we have. We are constantly getting suggestions around, "I think you should include this, I think you should include that", which is good; I mean, it's a good problem to have, rather than silence, because that just means nobody is using it.

The second impact, so to say, is we definitely see data and analytics as a workstream on the critical initiatives that we are launching, so be it a new learning platform, or be it some major transformation work that's happening, there is a people data and analytics workstream that's part of the entire project or initiative right at the beginning. So, it's not an afterthought, it's not something you put together after the initiative or the project has been launched. I think that's a change, and again, it's a bit anecdotal, I don't think I can cite data here, but it's definitely something that we are noticing over the last two years.

The nature of the questions that are coming to us have fundamentally changed, for sure. So from things like, "What's the headcount, and how do I download a headcount report?" to two years later saying, "How can we measure collaboration? 

How can we make sure that certain teams, who we are placing next to each other, are more engaged and collaborating than when they were placed differently?" So, the nature of the questions has changed, and I think it has to do with the education and awareness that we have been somewhat able to build; not saying we have cracked it, we still have a lot more to do.

But just around measuring the impact, we are spending some dedicated time and effort this year to measure the impact in a better way because we have a lot of anecdotal-type data saying nature of questions are different. We have workstreams around data, but we need more concrete data to show what impact it's having, so we are working on that. 

We just launched a self-assessment, pre and post, for data fluency, and we yet to get results, but hopefully, that will shed some light on if we've been able to create some impact in uplifting people in the skill.

David Green: So, let's transition now, from looking at it from an organisation perspective, and look at the people who are actually learning, some of your colleagues in HR, have you found certain pathways to be more popular than others; or, have you found that actually learning new pathways needed to be introduced for certain groups, and if so, what are they?

Madhura Chakrabarti: I would say not entirely about new pathways that we felt we need to build. 

But what we did find a couple of things: one is certain learning experiences or certain elements of those pathways are by far more popular than the other one. So, for example, the community of practice just took on a life of its own and is really popular; whereas, when we look at some of the other elements, like a few e-learning modules, or even some of the internal work that we showcase in the pathways, we don't see a lot of use, a lot of picks there.

So, that's another message to people who are on a similar journey is, yes, we build a pathway, but we have to be ready that certain elements of the pathway are going to be more successful than others. And then, the other feedback we also got was, we need to find connections between pathways, and I don't see it, say, just as between the two pathways that we have launched within data fluency, but we have other pathways around Agile digital and data, and things like technology savviness; and there are a lot of common elements to it.  

So, if there's a way we can either advertise other pathways if we want to learn more, or learn more in a slightly different context, make sure you click on this pathway, and if we can connect these learning experiences, other users said it would make for a richer experience at their end. So, those are two things to the feedback we have gathered.

David Green: Actually interesting, maybe for some people listening is, is it something you're doing as a team, or is it with the support and participation of your colleagues in learning at Syngenta?

Madhura Chakrabarti: A very interesting question, and maybe this is a good point to clarify that. 

So, definitely, my team is involved in creating the content for the two data fluency pathways, so that was completely done in-house. But in terms of actually putting it on the platform, which we did as well, but that required heavy partnership with the learning team, it just so happens that it sits within the same larger organisation within HR, so it didn't feel that far away.

But what I should also mention is that this entire initiative started around a bigger initiative across HR at Syngenta where we said, "What are the top skills that we want our HR function, our HR colleagues, to upskill themselves on in the next two to three years?" and there was six months of exercise around external and internal research, where we looked at what are those seven to ten skills that we should target. We ultimately came up and finalised a list of six, and data fluency was one of them.

We, of course, had one lead for each of these six capabilities, and we worked in partnership very, very closely for a year before we launched the first pathway.

David Green: So, a more general reflection now for listeners out there, maybe there's some CHROs or heads of people analytics, or other people, what did you learn from this project; and what would your key advice be to help them set themselves up for success?

Madhura Chakrabarti: Two things: one is listen to the users first. When we first talked about this initiative and decided we were going to do something about that data fluency was one of the six skills that had been finalised, my gut reaction, if I'm fully transparent, was, "I know how to build one, and I'm just going to build the content because I know exactly what people are looking for, or what they should be looking for". But once we did the listening exercise, the three themes that clearly emerged were so eye-opening and so useful to us for us to build the subsequent pathways; for sure, the people analytics team wouldn't have been able to come up with them on their own.

So, listen to your users first; people who are going to use or to learn should tell you what are they learning for. It's okay to add your elements, but you should first listen to them to get a foundational understanding. And then later, the messaging also becomes easier. You can say, "This is what you told us, and therefore we have built this for you", rather than, "Here's what we think you should learn about". So, that's number one.

The second is if there's a way to tie the data fluency work with some larger upskilling initiative in the organisation. For us, we were lucky that there was a larger capability work going on, and this was part of that bigger capability stream, or rather it was one of the six. But even otherwise, if this wasn't in place, we probably would have partnered with the enterprise-wide data analytics team because there's a lot of upskilling effort happening there as well; so, we probably would have tagged onto their offering and said, "By the way, if you're in HR, make sure you are aware of all these upskilling efforts and pathways that we're learning". So, it always helps to tie it with a bigger initiative in the organisation, rather than just trying to do it on your own, for data fluency in HR.

We've spoken about the initiatives that you took to help upskill HR in data literacy and analytical thinking, or data fluency, I think, as a skill that you identified. What would also be interesting, I think, to understand more about would be how you and your team of people analytics professionals are continuously upskilling themselves as well, because let's be honest, in the four years, you'll see that the field has really moved, hasn't it? So, I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

Madhura Chakrabarti: I will start by saying what I briefly described before was, building the pathway itself was such a learning for us, just learning the technology. 

And yes, it wasn't learning new statistical methods or not learning another language like Python, but it is about how do you put the curated content on a platform that people can then access. So, that in itself was a technology upskilling for us.

The second one was we hold a monthly development session for the people analytics team, where just my team members, me and my direct reports, we get together, and we have a dedicated topic that we try to address for two or three sessions over a period of three months, let's say. So, for now, it's text analytics. We realised that we are just sitting on a lot of text, not doing much, so how can we upskill ourselves? So, that is something that we are currently focusing on.  

Or, sometimes we discuss one-off things like if there's a recent report from, let's say, Insight222 around the latest state of people analytics, we discuss the report. We assign a team member or two to read the report, summarise, and that person, or those two persons, come and present. Then, we have a targeted discussion about where are we lagging behind in certain aspects; are we ahead of the curve in certain aspects; more dissect the report and compare our team to other organisations. So, that's the monthly development session.

I also make sure that we have external speakers in our quarterly team meetings, so these are meetings that we have every quarter, where we take two days, we call it off-site, but now, of course, pandemic, that term doesn't have any meaning. So, it's really just talking about our roadmap and vision in the coming months, how have we done, where are the blockers; so, not talking about the day-to-day operational stuff. In those meetings, we have one external speaker, and I make it very clear that it has to be from outside HR but related to data so that it just sparks new thinking for us. In our company, we have economists, we have data scientists, so there is no dearth of these people outside HR. So, that's a great source of learning.

Then, the community of practice, what people share, the discussions happen; that is a great learning source for us as well.

David Green: What I'd love to hear, Madhura, you've been in the field for a while, you analysed a field when you were at Deloitte, and you've been a people analytics leader for four years; if you reflect on those four years, what has surprised you about the growth in people analytics; what are the main things that you've seen, both as a practitioner leading a team within Syngenta, but also obviously being part of a community of people analytics professionals as well?

Madhura Chakrabarti: Very interesting question. I think that we can spend an hour or have a separate podcast just on this! 

So, I'll try to limit my thoughts and what I say. I think just the plethora of platforms that have emerged to solve different needs, especially in the employee listening area. That's where I feel very passionate about; my work intersects a lot with that; I grew up in that space, so to say, in terms of just purely survey vendors, which is how the field started 10, whatever, 15 years back, to this entire ecosystem. Just that entire spectrum has exploded, and I know there's a lot of consolidation that has happened as well in the space. But I feel like that's the hardest to keep up with. Every time I feel like I have a fairly good understanding of the vendors and the technology operating in the space, of course, there are five more that I didn't hear about, and I see them at a conference.  

At the same time, the flipside that also surprises me is the dearth of integrating mechanisms. We still struggle with data being in disparate systems, and I feel by now, we should have solved it. I know some companies have through data links, but that remains a pain point. 

And unless we are able to get to a point where there's a solid solution for having all the data, and I'm not even talking about the business data, let's have all HR data together, even that seems to be such a futuristic vision. That's where I'm also surprised that we haven't seen a lot of those mechanisms or innovations happen that easily integrate data and make it easy for the users. I know there are some, so I'm not saying there's absolutely nothing there, but I would have liked to have seen more. So, that has surprised me as well.

David Green: Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Certainly, there's more awareness, more excitement about people analytics, obviously lots of examples of where people analytics has added significant value to the business and to the workforce; I mean, we've really seen that over the last two-and-a-half years with the pandemic, I think, companies listening to their employees more, not just through surveys as well, but looking at some of the other means, looking at some of the collaboration data you mentioned at the start as well, to really understand things like wellbeing, collaboration, productivity. It's really interesting how the field has developed, so, yeah.

Actually, more data, and more skills, leads us quite nicely to the final question today, which is a question we're asking everyone on this series, and I know from talking to you before something you feel quite passionate about. 

What do you think the role of ethics is in HR and people analytics?

Madhura Chakrabarti: I think I'm going to give a bit of a controversial answer here because the reality is, it's of paramount importance. That's the short answer; I'm sure a lot of leaders can talk hours and hours on it. But what I've personally felt, and it's also one of my pet peeves, is we should not let it be a blocker in the way of doing meaningful analytics work.

The reason I say that is the number of times I've heard people in the company, and I'm not just talking about this company, even previous companies I've worked for or clients that I've advised, the number of times I've heard, "We can't do that because of GDPR". Then you start probing, "What about GDPR?" and then you soon get to a point where you realise, between the fear of lawsuits and ignorance, so to say, or not completely understanding what GDPR allows and does not allow, people often use that as a crutch to, "Let's just not go that, because that's dangerous", or just fear of data.

It's very important for us people analytics professionals to challenge that and constantly ask and educate people that, yes, GDPR puts a lot of guardrails, but it doesn't really prohibit us from analysing data that we need to analyse. And if it helps us have better insights, do things differently, and as long as we share results in an aggregated way, as long as it's a legitimate interest, as long as we inform the people about who we are analysing, we are good to go for most of these instances. So, I constantly challenge my team, and even the larger function, to not use GDPR. 

Or, when people are using, really probe further, "What about GDPR; what do you think is prohibited?" And then, oftentimes, the answer is, "No, it doesn't prohibit, as long as we check these other boxes".  

So, yes, ethics is important, yes, following GDPR and doing what's legally right, all of that is important, but we should also be bold enough to challenge and make sure that it's not a blocker in terms of doing meaningful, good work.

David Green: That's a really good point and a nice way to end our discussion, Madhura. It's always fascinating talking to you and learning about the work that you and the team are doing at Syngenta. Thank you for being a guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Can you let listeners know how they can stay in touch with you, follow you on social media, and find out more about your work?

Madhura Chakrabarti: Sure. LinkedIn would be the best way, and then we can always chat later if we need a deeper discussion. And thank you, David; I'm really honoured to be on your podcast, so thank you.

David Green: The honour is all mine, and ours, at myHRfuture, so thank you, Madhura. Look forward to seeing you probably at a conference or an Insight222 meeting soon.

Madhura Chakrabarti: Absolutely, thank you.