In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, host David Green welcomes Jacob Morgan, a 5x best-selling author, TED and keynote speaker, to explore the transformative concept of vulnerability in leadership. 

Jacob, author of the bestselling book “Leading With Vulnerability” offers an in-depth perspective on how vulnerability is not a weakness but a source of strength, particularly in today's challenging times marked by COVID-19, economic shifts, and the rise of artificial intelligence in the workplace. 

Unravelling the significance of vulnerability in modern leadership, in this episode you can expect to learn more about:

• Strategies for leaders to embrace and exhibit vulnerability in a way that enhances team dynamics and overall organisational health.

• Insights from Jacob's book on how leading with vulnerability can drive innovation, trust, and a strong team culture.

• The balance between showing vulnerability and maintaining credibility and authority as a leader.

• Real-life examples and stories from Jacob's experience and research, illustrating the impact of vulnerability in leadership.

• Practical tips for leaders to start their journey of 'climbing the vulnerability mountain' and how to navigate this path effectively.

• The evolving role of vulnerability in leadership in the face of technological advancements and the future of work.

Offering a deep dive into the nuances of vulnerability in leadership, this episode is a must listen for anyone looking to enhance their leadership style in these unprecedented times.

This episode is sponsored by HiBob, the modern HR platform for how you and your people work today. Check it out at www.hibob.com.

[0:00:00] David Green: Before we get started, I want to ask you a question.  When was the last time that you displayed vulnerability at work or with your team?  It's a question that might make some of us pause, reflect, and perhaps even feel a little uncomfortable, especially as the world that we live in often places professional success with projecting an image of invincibility.  Embracing vulnerability might not be the first thing that comes to mind.  Yet, as we'll discover today, vulnerability isn't a sign of weakness, but an indication of strength. 

In a time defined by unforeseen challenges from the profound impact of COVID-19 to economic downturns and a pervasive rise of artificial intelligence in the workplace, leading with vulnerability is becoming not just an option, but a vital strategy for success.  So today, joining me on the podcast is a very special guest, who not only champions this concept, but has authored a book on the subject, titled Leading with Vulnerability, which was informed by interviews of over 100 Chief Executive Officers.  Jacob Morgan is a five times best-selling author, TED and keynote speaker, a professionally trained futurist.  He brings a deep understanding of the evolving dynamics of leadership, and is here to share his insights on how leading with vulnerability can shape the future of leadership. 

In our conversation, we'll explore how to lead with vulnerability in the modern workplace, clarify the distinction between vulnerability and leading with it, and examine why it holds a prominent role in an era marched by uncertainty.  We'll discuss the delicate balance between vulnerability and credibility, unravel different types of vulnerable leader superheroes, and we'll also delve into Jacob's concept of climbing the vulnerability mountain.  So without further ado, let's head to the conversation as I start by asking Jacob to share an introduction to himself and his professional background. 

Jacob, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.  But before we get started, Jacob, can you please introduce yourself to our audience for those that don't know you, I'm sure many of them do, and share a bit about yourself and your professional background? 

[0:02:17] Jacob Morgan: Sure.  So, I am an author, speaker, professionally trained futurist, and I highlight the professionally trained part because it's something I actually went to school for post my traditional four-year university.  And really, I got into the stuff that I'm doing now because I really had bad jobs working for other people.  And so, 15 years ago, I went off on my own after one of the executives at the company I was working at made me go get him coffee.  And I realised this is why I worked so hard in college, this is why I double majored and graduated with honours; it didn't make sense for me.  So, I pretty much had a choice at that point.  It was either to continue just kind of slogging through the corporate world, or to go off on my own and try to build something on my own.  And that's ultimately what I chose to do. 

So, 15 years later, 5 books later, thousands of speeches later, podcasts, creating content, everything I do now is focused on three broad pillars, and that is creating great leaders, engaged employees and future-ready organisations.

[0:03:15] David Green: Fantastic.  And you certainly made a huge impact, I know, when I first got into the people analytics space, employee experience space.  I think you were one of the first people talking and writing about employee experience, I know, from one of your previous books.  I'm going to ask you a bit of a follow-up question there, Jacob, because I'm really interested.  You mentioned how you were a professionally trained futurist.  How do you become a professionally trained futurist?

[0:03:36] Jacob Morgan: So, there are a few schools that offer anything from professional certifications to master's degrees.  I think the University of Hawaii is one, University of Houston is another one.  So, I actually got my professional certification from the University of Houston.  And I think I went there in 2016 or 2017 and went there, studied with a cohort of other people.  It's called Foresight.  So, it's a professional certification in the field of foresight.

[0:04:02] David Green: Well, being a futurist is becoming ever more important with the unpredictability of our world at the moment.  And I know your fifth book is Leading with Vulnerability, something that's really, really even more coming to the fore, but certainly we've seen over the last few years.  It's definitely a timely topic, particularly when we talk about the current economic climate and black swan events like the pandemic.  I wonder, what led you to explore the concept of leading with vulnerability?

[0:04:29] Jacob Morgan: There were a few paths actually.  There was kind of a personal path and then there was also more of a work-related path.  The work-related path came actually from my previous , called The Future Leader.  That one came out in 2020.  And for that book, I was interviewing a lot of CEOs trying to understand important mindsets and skill sets for future leaders through 2030.  And the theme of emotional intelligence and vulnerability came up quite a lot.  But a lot of the CEOs I was interviewing were also very candid in the sense that there were two challenges with vulnerability.  So, they all knew what it was, they all knew why it was important and why it was so crucial, but they knew so in their personal lives.  And kind of the two big challenges that I was getting from a lot of these top leaders is, number one, they wanted to know, is vulnerability inside of an organisation the same as it is in your personal life?  I mean, if I share something with my spouse or significant other, is it really just that simple inside of an organisation?  And what about if you're a leader of a team or a function; is vulnerability for you the same as it is for everybody else?  And we can talk a little bit more about that. 

The second piece of it was, on the one hand, the CEOs were telling me that their employees wanted them to be confident and strong and visionary and strategic.  And on the other hand, these employees were also saying, "How come you don't tell me how you're feeling or the challenges that you're going through or the struggles that you have?"  And so, you have these two seemingly opposing perspectives of, "Am I supposed to be this strong, visionary, competent leader; or do you want me to talk about my failures and challenges or struggles?"  And so, again, a lot of the leaders understood vulnerability, but they weren't sure how to apply it inside of an organisation, why they should be applying it, what they should be thinking about.  And so, I thought it would be really interesting to write a book specifically on that, because I also believe it's very powerful, but I think there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. 

On the personal side, it came because I have Georgian immigrant parents, so from the former USSR.  And growing up, as much as my mom tried to be emotionally open and vulnerable, as a young boy I grew up watching my dad, who didn't believe in vulnerability of any kind, "There's no trophy for second place; nobody cares about your problems or your feelings".  To this day, when I go visit my dad at my parents' house, one of the first things he's always asking me is, "How many push-ups can you do?  How many pull-ups can you do?  Why don't you come out in the backyard and let's have a little fitness test?"  So, that's how I grew up.  And what happened is a couple years ago, I actually had a series of panic attacks and I couldn't figure out what was going on, that never happened before. 

So, I went to have a couple sessions with a therapist and it became very clear that what was causing these panic attacks was the fact that I had committed to writing a book about vulnerability when I myself was not a vulnerable person.  And the fact that I was sort of confronting this mountain when I was so stubbornly against it, it's two immovable forces kind of crashing together, and my body just didn't know what to do with itself.  Thankfully, it's been a few years since I've had one, but that also taught me a valuable lesson on the power of vulnerability, again when approached in the right way.

[0:07:43] David Green: Before we dive into some of the areas that you cover in the book, just for the benefit of people listening that maybe don't have the book yet, can you give us an overview of what you cover in the book and some of the people maybe that you've interviewed for the book as well, because I know you've interviewed a lot of CEOs and other people as part of the research?

[0:09:09] Jacob Morgan: Yes, so some context, over 100 CEOs and surveyed 14,000 employees in partnership with DDI.  The CEOs are global in nature, they're from companies around the world, including American Airlines, GE, Edward Jones, Dow Chemical, DBS Bank, which is currently ranked, I think, as the world's number one bank, Johnson Controls, I mean lots of big, global organisations that are out there, Deloitte as well, and asked all of them a series of questions.  I mean, these were done in a lot of one-on-one interviews, oftentimes interviews -- CEO of Hyatt, by the way, also a big company -- these were all done in over hour-long discussions, oftentimes in follow-up interviews as well.  So, I spent many, many, many hours talking to all of these global leaders and again, surveying these 14,000 employees. 

I'd say the overarching thesis of the book, if I could pick on one theme, which might sound a little bit counterintuitive considering everything that we've been talking about, is don't be vulnerable at work.  Being vulnerable at work can actually cause far more harm than it can help you.  Being vulnerable at work can destroy your career; it can decrease the perception of trust and competence in you.  Now, let me preface that by first saying, "What's the difference between being vulnerable versus leading with vulnerability?"  Vulnerability, a lot of the research obviously has been pioneered by Brené Brown.  She defines vulnerability as, "The feeling that you get when you are faced with risk, uncertainty, and emotional exposure".  Now in the context of work, when we have relationships with other people and we're working in teams, you could, broadly speaking, think of vulnerability as doing or saying something that exposes you to the potential of emotional harm. 

So, if we're on a team together, and we get assigned a project, and I come to you and I say, "Hey don't tell anybody, but I've never done this before", so I'm exposing myself to the potential of emotional harm.  You can now take that information if you want, and you could go to our boss and say, "Hey, why did you put me on this team with Jacob?  He just told me he's never done this before".  And then our boss says, "Jacob, you're off the team".  So, I expose myself to the potential of emotional harm, you now use that information against me.  So, that's vulnerability, right, the exposure, the gap.  I'm basically sharing a gap with you.  It could be an emotional gap, a gap in understanding, a gap in competence, but I'm telling you what that gap is, where my area that I'm lacking is. 

Now, why is that such a bad thing and potentially harmful thing inside of an organisation?  Well, you have to remember why you got hired for your job.  You got hired because an organisation needed help with something, and you said that you have the talents, the capabilities, and the skills to do the job that you were hired to do.  So now, if you show up to work every day and start talking about your mistakes, your failures, your challenges, your struggles, your feelings, at a certain point, your peers and your leaders are going to turn to you and they're going to say, "Hey, I'm confused.  We brought you in because you said you could do X, Y, Z, but now all you're doing is just pointing out all the gaps that you have.  Maybe this is not a good fit". 

Leading with vulnerability, on the other hand, is starting off with pointing out where the gaps are, but then demonstrating what you are trying to do to close your gaps.  So, very simple example.  If again, we're on a team together and let's say you assign a project for me to do and I mess it up.  Now, being vulnerable would mean that I go to you and I say, "Hey, you know what?  I'm so sorry, I messed up this project.  I know how important it was, but I really screwed it up.  I'm sorry".  That's vulnerability.  Now on the surface, you might say, well, it's important to create an environment where employees are safe to do that.  That's true.  But we also have to understand what I just did.  We're part of a team dynamic, I probably let you down, I let down the team, maybe a client, and everybody's basically in their minds thinking, "Yeah, but so what?  You didn't do what you needed to do.  Now we're all kind of in trouble for this". 

Leading with vulnerability would take that same situation and it would say, "Hey, you know what?  I'm really sorry I messed up this project.  I know how important it was, but you know what?  Here's what I learned from that mistake that I made, and here's what I'm going to do going forward to make sure that that mistake never happens again".  So, not only did I expose my gap, but I'm also demonstrating to you what I'm doing to try to close that gap.  That's the difference between vulnerability, showing the gap, and leading with vulnerability.  Showing the gap, how am I closing it?  It's competence and connection, leadership and vulnerability. 

The challenge that we have inside of our organisations is we only focus on the vulnerability, to the point where we're using it as a way to justify poor performance.  Whenever we can't do something, we immediately -- vulnerability, let's use vulnerability to explain why we can't do something.  But at a certain point, you have to demonstrate that you're closing the gap.  This is not only going to be crucial for your own leadership success, but also the perception that people will have of you.  I mean, think about how your peers and your leaders are going to perceive you, somebody who identifies and keeps pointing out the gaps, versus somebody who's not just pointing them out, but demonstrating how you're closing them.  So, let me stop there and see if you have any questions, but that's kind of the overarching theme.  Leadership plus vulnerability equals leading with vulnerability, and the book then goes through, how do you do that?  Frameworks, models, research, everything to kind of bring this to life so that you can make it happen.

[0:14:44] David Green: Is there anything that surprised you from the survey or the more one-on-one interviews with the CEOs?

[0:14:52] Jacob Morgan: I mean, there were a few things.  One of the things that we asked is, "What's the number one reason why you're not more vulnerable at work?"  And the number one response by far from everybody was, "I don't want to be perceived as being weak or incompetent", so, "I don't want to share my gaps because I don't want you to think that I'm incompetent".  And the way that you solve that problem is actually in the survey response.  If you don't want to be perceived as being weak or incompetent, then demonstrate that you're competent, meaning don't just point out the gap, point out that you're trying to close the gap.  Obviously, if all you do every day is point out the gaps, then yes, people will look at you and say, "Wow, Jacob's got a lot of gaps".  However, if you point out the gaps and demonstrate that you're trying to close them, then the perception will be, "Wow, Jacob's got a lot of gaps, but he's trying really hard to get better, to learn, to grow.  He's trying to close those gaps.  He's motivated, he's driven, he has a lot of potential".  It's a change in perception of how people view you.  So, that I thought was very interesting as far as why, what that number one reason is. 

I think a couple other very interesting pieces of information were that from all the CEOs that I interviewed, they all told me that vulnerability is a very uncomfortable thing, to the point where it's physically uncomfortable.  Some CEOs have shared that they've had panic attacks, their voice quivers, they have butterflies in their stomach, their palms get sweaty, they tremble, all sorts of physical manifestations of what vulnerability does to you because of how uncomfortable it actually is.  And we've all been there, we know what that's like.  And so, then the question becomes, well, why do it if it's so unpleasant and so uncomfortable?  And the reason is because at any point in your life when you wanted to learn and to grow and to push boundaries, you have to get out of your comfort zone. 

So, if you want to stay as a mediocre leader and just kind of hope that nobody around you notices, then yeah, don't do any of this stuff.  But if you want to grow, you want to make an impact, you have greater aspirations for yourself and your team, then you're going to have to get out of your comfort zone and you're going to have to lead with vulnerability.  So, I thought that was very interesting as far as the physical manifestations behind it as well.

[0:17:06] David Green: Yeah, very interesting.  And I think that leads quite nicely to the next question.  You know, we're living in a time of pretty massive change.  The World Economic Forum, we were talking about the fourth Industrial Revolution for a number of years now, probably all the way back to when we recorded that podcast in 2017.  But obviously this year, we've really seen a lot more noise around generative AI.  Given the rise of AI in the workplace, and actually I'd also probably add to that, given the shift towards hybrid work as well, because that means leading differently, why would you say it's more important than ever to start leading with vulnerability?

[0:17:41] Jacob Morgan: I think a few reasons.  Number one is just to your point that you just mentioned, the enormous amount of change that we're seeing.  And change is a very strong constant, but I think the pace of change is far greater now and we're seeing more change across a variety of areas.  Whether you look at geopolitical issues, technology issues, economic issues, business structure, I mean it's just all over the place, right?  And so, the way that you improve and adapt during times of change is through vulnerability, is admitting that you need to get better, that you do have those gaps.  So, pointing out those gaps is important.  If you don't point out those gaps, then you're not going to be able to learn and grow and get better. 

Now, part of it is, of course, you need to try to close those gaps yourself, not just assume other people are going to close it for you, but if you don't even talk about them, then you're not going to move forward while the world around you changes.  And what's going to happen over time is you will be left behind, because you're going to stay in a stagnant position while the world around you changes, which means by default, everything moves forward, you are now lagging behind.  Second, I think it's important because I feel like there's never been more of a time when we have needed that push for connection and competence.  These to me seem to be very big areas that we are struggling with in the business world.  We keep talking about this need of connecting with others, of putting people first; we keep hearing about the loneliness epidemic, burnout, disengagement.  That's where a lot of the connection stuff comes from.  But at the same time, we also hear a lot of challenges when it comes to competence, people being good at their jobs. 

I myself actually feel like the work ethic collectively has taken a nosedive.  It just doesn't feel like we have that same work ethic today that we did five, ten years ago.  It doesn't seem like a lot of people want to, dare I even say, work as much now as they did before.  And so, I think we're struggling on both fronts.  On the competence part, like Mark Randolph, for example, he was the first CEO of Netflix.  He told me that one of his rules for success was to always do 10% more than what was asked of him.  And today, it feels like we want to do 20% less than what is expected.  And I don't feel like we have that "do 10% more" mentality any more, and that freaks me out a little bit.  To me, we are in a world now where we're trying to get more while doing less, which I don't think is very healthy.  So, we have a struggle on the competence side, we also have a struggle on the connection side.  And so, I think now we need both of these things more than ever to come together.

[0:20:21] David Green: Why do you think people do want to do 20% less, to your point there, rather than the 10% more that Mark Randolph cited.

[0:20:30] Jacob Morgan: Well, I think there's probably a lot of issues for it, right, I mean, some of it is economic.  You know, we pumped so much money into the economy, we've incentivised people to try to work less and get paid.  So, I think we have an incentive structure that's a little bit backwards.  I think the pendulum of power has shifted too much into the hands of employees, which is hard for me to say because I literally wrote a book on employee experience.  I want to preface this by saying, I do think organisations should treat you well, which we can talk about, but if you look at what happened during the course of the pandemic, companies were struggling so much that employees were grabbing as much as they could.  And so, we were in situations where employees were asking to make more than their boss's boss.  Employees wanted more equity, they wanted better benefits, they wanted higher pay.  And then on top of all of that, they then told their employers, "By the way, I don't even want to show up to the office any more".  And so, the employees took everything that they possibly could. 

Now we're coming out of the pandemic, of course, and in a lot of organisations, we have these clashing of heads.  And one of the things that actually to me even sounds a bit crazy, is the fact that employees are getting upset because their employers are telling them, "Hey, we want you to come to the office".  I mean, that to me is insane.  And they're not just saying come to the office, they're being like, "Let's have a flexible work programme, come in three days a week", and employees are out there, "No, the hell with you".  And in my mind I'm thinking, wait a minute, they're not saying work nine to five, five days a week.  A lot of them are saying, "Hey, can you come in sometimes for a few hours so that we can get together, align on culture, brainstorm new ideas, come up with strategies, try to innovate and grow", and for employees to then say, "The hell with you", to me, is just a slap in the face. 

Not only that, if you look at a lot of the stuff that's trending on social media, especially when you look at the younger generation, there's trending topics like Lazy Girl Jobs, the Sunday Scaries.  There are people going on social media who are putting what their workday looks like at a company like Google, where on Monday they show up to work and they're like, "Oh, I'm just going to lounge in my chair, I'm going to drink a smoothie, maybe I'll answer an email", and it's this culture of, "You shouldn't have to work hard on Monday and Tuesday, maybe you put a little bit of effort on Wednesday and Thursday, and then you kind of ease out of the work week on Friday".  I'm sorry, I'm not going to curse on your show, but especially for me coming from immigrant parents, I was taught that you work hard, you do 10% more than what's asked.  

So, you have all of these things coming together, these trending things on social media basically saying, "Let's chill, don't work so hard", and yeah, you get an environment where people take a step back and they say, "Why am I working this hard?"  Now again, I'm a millennial, I saw my mum work for an organisation for most of her life and she would come home from work crying and she was miserable and she worked hard to the point where she actually quit her job and went to go do something else.  I get that.  She became a marriage and family therapist, went back to school to get a master's degree.  That's fine, but if you're working at an organisation that you don't think is treating you well, go quit, work somewhere else, go build something on your own. 

Now, I also want to say that on the stance of employees, I do believe the organisation should focus on those three environments for you of culture, technology, and space.  You should have the tools and resources you need to do your job; you should be able to work in spaces that you feel inspire, engage you, and motivate you.  I don't believe in cubicles and grey walls, I don't think anybody should work in that kind of an environment.  I do believe in flexible work.  I believe that you should have coaching and mentoring and training programmes.  I do believe that you should be compensated fairly.  And I do believe in those things too, but it's too much into the hands of employees at this point.

[0:24:29] David Green: That's really interesting, Jacob.  I mean actually, in last week's episode, Nick Bloom, the Economics Professor at Stanford, I mean you should be aware he's been working on work from home for 20 years and looking at it on a monthly basis since the start of the pandemic.  And he said that based on the data that they're seeing, that work from home is stabilising at just over two days a week and is likely to stay like that.  So, thinking with that in mind and thinking that as a data point, how can we get a better equilibrium between employers and employees; does leading with vulnerability come into that? 

[0:25:08] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, and by the way, so one preface to that, there are also studies out there that show, "Oh, working from home, employees are just as productive".  That's the wrong thing to be focusing on.  We don't want productivity.  Productivity is really just about keeping things the way they are, keeping the engines running.  We want more than that, we want to grow and innovate, we want to push boundaries, we don't want to stay where we are.  Sure, if you want to stay where you are, and you just want to check things off of a to-do list and just kind of be treading water, yeah, but what company wants that?  Companies want to grow, to innovate, to solve complex challenges, to identify new opportunities. 

You're not going to get that level of innovation and growth when people are never together, right?  And I mean, sure, there are a couple exceptions that might be floating around out there, but those exceptions are not the rule.  So, that's kind of the preface; there's a difference between productivity and there's a difference between innovation and pushing the boundaries.  I think even Microsoft did an internal study and they noticed this as well.  They said, "Yeah, our employees are just as productive, but we're really struggling with innovation and growth".  So, you've  got to have both of those things there. 

As far as where the equilibrium comes from, I think we're going to start to see it happen naturally.  You see what's going on inside of a lot of organisations now where they're going through layoffs.  So, if you were one of those employees who tried to grab as much as you can, and the company is saying, "Hey, we want to do layoffs now", guess who they're going to be laying off first?  They're going to be laying off the employees who decided to grab as much as they can.  Those employees are going to be laid off, and then they're going to have to re-enter their workforce again and look for another company.  The new company that they go work for is not going to have those same practices anymore.  They're not going to be paying you as much as you were at that previous role. 

So, I think we will see a natural rebalancing in some way of a more kind of stabilised balance of power.  But I think it's going to take a little bit of time.  I mean, even now, right?  I mean, to your point, Nick Bloom said it's rebalancing to two days a week.  I think we'll see more of that kind of hybrid, flexible work environment, but there's still a lot of tension between employees and employers.  You even see what's going on with the United Auto Workers here in the States, where they're demanding a 40% increase in salary over four years, they're asking for more for their pensions.  And on top of everything, they're saying, "We want to work 32 hours a week, but we want to be paid for 40 hours a week". 

As far as where leading with vulnerability comes into play, I think it's important in a lot of different aspects.  Number one, of course, when it comes to innovation, right?  I mean, people want to work for leaders who they can connect with, because connection is where trust, motivation, engagement, inspiration, all of that comes from.  And you also want to work for a leader who you know is good at their job, who you can learn from, who can coach you, who can mentor you.  So, that's just kind of the environment, regardless of if you're in an office or you're not in an office.  I think that's what we need to be looking for from leaders.  But you do want to, especially post pandemic, as so many of us went through a tough time, the connecting with people is really important.  Working for a leader that has your best interest in mind, working for a leader who cares about you, who enquires about your wellbeing. 

When we surveyed these 14,000 employees, among some of the lowest scoring leadership behaviours from all of them were, "Genuinely enquires about my wellbeing.  Genuinely acknowledges and admits to mistakes and failures", and at the very bottom was, "Willingness to show emotional vulnerability at work".  So, we are struggling in a lot of those areas.  I mean, think about that.  Most people in the world work for a leader where they don't enquire about your wellbeing, the leader is not willing to talk about a mistake or failure that they made, and the leader is not willing to show emotional vulnerability of any kind.  I mean, it sounds like a robot, right?  It sounds like you are working for a robot.  That's not good.  So, I think that needs to change for sure, especially if you are in a flexible environment where you're looking at people behind a screen, you got to be able to maintain that connection.

[0:29:22] David Green: We're going to move now to superheroes.  I really like this part of the book.  So, in the book you mention different types of vulnerable leaders, superheroes and specific attributes that make up vulnerable leaders.  Can you provide a few examples of these leader types and attributes, maybe the top three or something?

[0:30:31] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.  So to preface this, the context is because when we think about leading with vulnerability, and just vulnerability in general, there's a tendency to say this person is vulnerable or they're not.  And I don't think that's the right way to look at it.  I think there's a lot of grey area.  I think it's a little bit of a of a spectrum or a scale.  For example, for a lot of the leaders that I interviewed, I noticed that some were more comfortable being vulnerable about work-related issues and some were comfortable being vulnerable about personal issues.  Now, if I look at both of those CEOs, I can't say that one is vulnerable and one is not, they're just comfortable being vulnerable about different things.  And by the way, it doesn't mean that if I'm more comfortable being vulnerable about work-related stuff, that I'm never going to share anything personal.  It just means that I am more comfortable with the work-related stuff. 

So, there was this a little bit of a -- I discovered and I call them different types of superheroes, because from interviewing these CEOs, it's not like you're vulnerable or you're not, there's different types.  And so, I can maybe share two of them with you if you want, and if you want more, I can do more.  So, one of the superheroes I call Captain Heart.  And Captain Heart is somebody who wears their heart on their sleeve.  And we know a lot of people like that in our personal lives and inside of our organisations, they're really good at building relationships and connections, they're charismatic, they're innovative and curious, they are emotionally intelligent, they're good at thriving in complex situations, but they wear their heart on their sleeve.  They will share anything with anyone and everyone, in context when appropriate, right?  I'm not saying they're an overshare, but they have no problem just wearing their heart on their sleeve. 

So, those are some of the abilities, as I call them, for superheroes, but there's also challenges with all of these superheroes, there's pros and cons.  And so, some of the challenges for somebody who wears their heart on their sleeve is you're more susceptible to attack from others, because people know so much about you and you share so much that there's a lot of ammunition you're giving other people that they can use against you.  Captain Heart can also sometimes feel overwhelming or overbearing to others.  I mean, imagine you're having a conversation with an employee and you have somebody, they wear their heart on their sleeve, it almost feels smothering in some sort of a way.  They can be perceived as being too vulnerable in situations. 

We could look at somebody on the opposite end of that, and that would be another superhero called Wonder Worker.  And Wonder Worker is a superhero who shares things about their work life in terms of vulnerabilities.  And so, they might talk about mistakes and failures and challenges.  Everything is in the context of a work environment.  And so, some of the abilities or strengths of this superhero are ability to connect with others on a professional level, they're really good at maintaining boundaries between their personal and their professional life, they're really good at unlocking the potential of their team, driving results, team dynamics, because everything is in the context of work.  And they oftentimes create cultures that are really focused on learning and growth.  Some of the challenges or the weaknesses for this type of a leader can be, others might feel they don't know the real you.  They know you from the work side, but they don't feel like, "I don't really know Jacob and maybe what he cares about and what he values".  I might struggle with creating as much of a sense of trust and belonging as somebody like a Captain Heart.  And it might be hard for me to get or give emotional support from others when that's needed. 

So, again, those are two of the five superheroes.  They all have their abilities.  They all have their weaknesses.

[0:34:15] David Green: So, Jacob, maintaining authority and credibility while being vulnerable can be a challenge for leaders.  How can they strike the right balance in the workplace?

[0:34:24] Jacob Morgan: Well, I think the simple thing is maintain your credibility and authority.  You do that by being good at your job.  I mean, one of the things that I stress in the book is that there's no substitute for being good at your job.  I don't care how emotionally intelligent you are, I don't care how self-aware you are, how much empathy you have, how great you are, any of those other things.  If you are not good at your job and you're great at all those other things, the competence piece is going to come back to bite you, because you have to remember that is largely one of the reasons that you were hired, because of your competence and your ability to do something.  So, as soon as you stop demonstrating that you have that, you're going to struggle. 

There is a concept in psychology called the pratfall effect, which was created by a psychologist named Elliot Aronson.  He taught at the University of California, Santa Cruz, which is where I went to school.  And the whole concept of the pratfall effect is basically, if you are really good at your job, you're highly competent, and you're vulnerable, you get a little bit of a boost in your perception of competence and likability, because people will look at you and they'll say, "Wow, Jacob's really good at his job, but now he's also comfortable talking about a mistake or a challenge, now he seems more human, he seems more likable".  And because of that, people might say, "Well, now he seems even more competent, he seems even more likable", so you get a little bit of a boost. 

But the flip side of that is also true.  If you're a mediocre employee, you're not that great at your job, maybe you're a C player and you're also vulnerable.  What happens is your vulnerability reinforces your mediocrity.  So, people will then look at you and they'll say, oh, "I get why Jacob is a C player, I get why Jacob's not being promoted, I understand now, it all makes sense", because I'm not good at my job, I'm not demonstrating that I'm trying to get good at my job, I'm just pointing out the gaps.  And so, the problem is when you only point out the gaps is you live in the gaps, and people will view you as somebody who lives in the gaps.  That's not a place you want to live in.  You want to live outside the gap, you want to live in a space where you're trying to shrink and close those gaps.  So, there's a difference in perception of when you're vulnerable and you're good at your job versus when you're vulnerable and you're not good at your job.

[0:36:44] David Green: And in the book, you also introduced the concept of climbing the vulnerability mountain.  How can this framework guide leaders on their journey to leading with vulnerability, albeit obviously with the competence part as well?

[0:36:58] Jacob Morgan: Yeah.  So, the whole concept of leading with vulnerability is -- and actually, if I share the cover, it'll make sense.  So, the cover of the book, you see I think in the background, you see the mountain, and you see there's this character that's getting ready to climb this mountain.  And it's a very symbolic mountain.  And the whole concept behind the vulnerability mountain is that whenever you climb a mountain, when you first start, it's pretty easy.  The first few steps that you take are not that challenging.  But the higher up the mountain you go, the harder it becomes, the more mistakes you might make, the more likely the chance that you're going to fall and get hurt.  But also the higher up you climb, the more clarity you get, the more beautiful the vistas become, the farther out you can see, the more connections you create as you meet more people on the journey. 

So, the whole theme of this mountain is that, identify what your base camp is, identify what's something that you can do tomorrow, a step that you can take towards that mountain.  And identify what's at the peak of the mountain for you; what's kind of a scary thing that you can't imagine doing tomorrow?  And then ask yourself, now that you know the base camp and now that where the peak is, what you can do on a regular basis to climb that mountain.  And day by day, week by week, month by month, you climb that mountain.  And you do things to move higher up that mountain, to create those better relationships, to be more vulnerable, but also to be more competent, to get better at the things that you are doing.  And that's the journey that every great leader must go on, is to climb that mountain.  And it's likely a never-ending journey and it's filled with twists and turns, but I think it's a journey that any great leader needs to go on.

[0:38:49] David Green: And Jacob, I'm going to ask you a question related specifically to HR and people analytics in a minute, because we've got so many people from those fields listening in.  But before I do obviously you share a lot of the examples in the book.  What's maybe one or two of your favourite stories that you've got in the book?

[0:39:10] Jacob Morgan: Oh, man, there's so many!  I mean, one of them that kind of sets the tone for the book is, the CEO of American Airlines shared this story with me and he shared the story of another CEO, a former CEO of Continental Airlines.  And the story was that this former CEO of Continental Airlines, Hollis Harris, in the 1990s the airline was struggling, and Hollis Harris was asked to deliver a memo to his workforce.  And so, he sends out a memo and he acknowledges some of the challenges or struggles that the business is going through.  And he ends his memo by telling his employees that the best thing they could do is to pray for the future of the company.  And the next day, Hollis Harris was fired.  And again, what he did was very vulnerable, but there was no leadership there. 

I really like that story because it shows why vulnerability for a leader specifically is not enough and why you need to add that competence.  And I contrast this with another story from Fleetwood Grobler.  He's the CEO of Sasol, which is a South African energy company.  And he shares a story with me of when he took over as CEO, the company was $13 billion in debt.  It was also struggling and going through a tough time.  And he also addressed his entire workforce.  And he started off his message similar to the way Hollis started his.  He talked about the challenges to the business and to the economy, that he didn't know exactly what steps the company should take to get out of this mess.  And then he added the leadership.  He said, "I have a vision for where I think this business can go.  I know that we can rebuild trust in the eyes of our employees and in our customers, I know we have an amazing workforce, and if you go with me on this journey and help me figure out what that path is going to be, then I know that we can turn around and transform this business and be successful".  And that's exactly what they did. 

I think that's a very good comparison between two CEOs, one who was vulnerable and one who led with vulnerability.  And I mean, those are two of my favourite stories as far as bringing the concepts to life.  But there's so many crazy stories in the book of how leaders were backstabbed, of how vulnerability was used against them, of how they were betrayed.  Some of the stories are just completely shocking in there.

[0:41:22] David Green: Okay, well, I'm looking forward to digging in more.  And actually, a really good example there, I think, because it's much more reassuring when someone says, "It's going to be hard, but don't worry, I've got a plan, and if you come with me, we can get through it together", sort of thing.  That's much more reassuring to hear as an employee than the first example.  So, as I said, the majority of our listeners are HR professionals, people analytics leaders.  What advice would you give to them to help them upskill their current and aspiring leaders to leading with vulnerability; and maybe from a people analytics perspective as well, what are some of the data points that people can look at here to understand this topic maybe a lot better than organisations do at the moment?

[0:42:03] Jacob Morgan: Sure.  So, for an HR leader, we can look at it from the perspective of two parts.  One is for yourself and one is for your teams.  I mean, the best piece of advice across the board, whether you're looking at this for yourself as an HR leader or whether you're looking to teach other employees this concept, is to remember the vulnerable leader equation, which is, "Vulnerability plus leadership equals leading with vulnerability", or, "Connection plus competence equals leading with vulnerability".  I think those are the two pillars that you need to be able to measure.  And across the board, I think that is what HR leaders need to be teaching to the entire workforce, is to say that, "As a leader, the two most important aspects of your role are to be able to connect with the people that you work with and to be good at your job". 

In the book, I have these eight attributes that I look at, and these are easily, I think, eight attributes that people can measure.  I can quickly just go through and give you a sentence about each one. 

[0:42:58] David Green: Yes, please, yeah.

[0:42:59] Jacob Morgan: Competence is just being good at your job.  Those are very clear and objective metrics.  And some of these can be a little bit of qualitative metrics that either you can ask as far as a survey goes, or you can ask other people who work for the leader.  So, self-confidence is basically belief in yourself.  Motivation is, do you have the drive to do what is required to actually close the gaps?  Because it's one thing to talk about it and to spot them and to say that you're going to close them, it's another thing to be motivated to actually close them.  So, those are the three leadership pieces.  And then there's five for vulnerability, which are self-awareness, and that is knowing your strengths and weaknesses, how you perceive yourself and how other people perceive you.  Then we have self-compassion, is how do you talk to yourself, what's your inner voice.  Empathy, being able to see things from other people's perspective.  Authenticity is being a genuine version of you, so kind of a single genuine version of you where people know your values and what you stand for and what you care about.  I think that's important.  And integrity.  And integrity is really this idea of having a North Star, being a moral and an honest person who has a clear set of guiding principles moving you in the right direction. 

So, I think those are the most important attributes as identified by the CEOs that I interviewed.  So, as an HR leader, I would put priority on these two aspects of leadership and vulnerability.  I would practise these myself and I would give the message to my workforce that it is important that we create a safe space for you to be vulnerable, but you also need to be accountable about closing your own gaps.  We will help you whenever we can, but we want to create an environment where you have responsibility, you have agency, you have accountability, and you need to do more to help yourself, instead of assuming that everybody else around you is going to be the only one helping you.

[0:44:51] David Green: If you had one message or piece of wisdom that you could leave our audience with regarding the importance of leading with vulnerability in the workplace and how it can shape the future of leadership, what would it be? 

[0:45:03] Jacob Morgan: Well, one, we talked about that equation earlier, but I think this is the best way that you will be able to unlock the potential in yourself, unlock the potential of those around you, lead through change, drive business performance, and create trust.  So, if you are somebody who wants to do any or all of those things, then you're not going to be able to do that without leading with vulnerability.  So again, it depends on what kind of a leader you want to be.  If you want to use outdated workplace practices, keep doing things the way you've always been doing them, and then think or assume that you're going to have a place in leadership over the coming years, and assume that you're still going to be able to make an impact, then by all means, keep doing what you're doing and hope for the best. 

If you want to be more proactive in making sure that you can do those things, then I would highly encourage you to focus on those two pieces of the equation, connecting with people and being good at your job.  I think it's the best thing that you can do to transform yourself, your team and your organisation.

[0:46:04] David Green: So basically, leading with vulnerability helps you become a better leader, helps you achieve better results and helps get better engagement and respect from the people that you're leading.

[0:46:14] Jacob Morgan: Yeah, I mean, we have actual survey data, right, where we looked at there's a greater increase in engagement, almost 3X.  You can create more inclusive environments, employees are more productive at work, you create more of a sense of trust.  These leaders are able to -- there's a higher perception that leaders in organisations that do this are more high quality, you are able to lead through uncertain times, you're better able to manage a remote workforce.  So, across the board, there's not only an ROI for you, but there's an ROI for the business and being able to manage and lead effectively.

[0:46:49] David Green: Well, I think that shakes us up to the final question, and this is a question of the series, Jacob.  And as a professional futurist, I think you might have a bit more of an insight on this than maybe some of the other people I'll be speaking to, although I appreciate it's just in the immediate future.  So, as we approach the end of 2023, what do you think will be the key priorities for HR as we head into 2024?

[0:47:10] Jacob Morgan: That's a good question.  I think some of the key priorities for HR, well, employee experience I think is always a very big priority for HR.  I mean, I wrote that book, what, 2017 I think?  That's six years ago.  So, I think that's always going to be a consistent and ongoing priority for HR.  But maybe a specific 2024 priority for HR, I would hope is going to be how to blend and bring these two components together.  I think we need to get back to maybe some of the basics, which are again, competence and connection.  I think a lot of HR teams are going to be challenged with trying to figure out, now that we talk about generative AI, and an influx of technology into the workforce, what does that mean for the people who work there?  So, trying to figure out the role that technology plays, the role that AI plays, and how humans can play with that technology is going to be important. 

But I think in that kind of a world, what will emerge as being the most valuable are going to be those human aspects of work, the human attributes of leadership.  And again, a big part of that is connecting with your people, being able to coach others, being able to help make other people more successful, even if they're more successful than you.  So, that's going to be a very fun and interesting challenge I think for a lot of HR teams, is doing a better job.  We've talked about the influx of technology for many, many years and how humans are going to mesh with it.  But I think now, for the first time, we're actually seeing with generative AI the impact that the technology is having.  It's more real now, whereas in the past it was more kind of a conceptual exercise.  So, that's going to be, I think, one of the biggest challenges for 2024.

[0:48:52] David Green: Jacob, thank you so much for being a guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  I'm so glad I was able to return the favour, as it were.  We're doing a bit of a role reversal!  Can you let listeners know how they can find you on social media, maybe your website, find out more about your work, find out more about the book as well? 

[0:49:09] Jacob Morgan: Sure.  There are a couple of places where people can go.  Specifically for the book, people can go to leadwithvulnerability.com.  And then for people who send me an email to bonusatthefutureorganisation.com with a screenshot of if they order the book, I'll send them five of the CEO interviews that I did with GE, American Airlines, and a couple others.  We have a Substack where I'm sharing some of the insights and findings from the book, but also just in general stuff on employee experience and leadership in the future of work.  That's at greatleadership.substack.com.  And then my personal website is thefutureorganisation.com, and all of my social links and email and all that sort of fun stuff is easily available there.

[0:49:53] David Green: Perfect, and we'll include all those in the show notes as well, so people can find those easily.  So, Jacob, I'm really hoping at some point we'll be speaking at the same conference so we can actually meet face to face.  But thank you so much for being a guest on the show.  I wish you all the luck with the book and it's a fascinating topic, and I think listeners will enjoy what they've heard today.

[0:50:15] Jacob Morgan: Thank you for having me.  I appreciate it.