Why do so many HR tech project implementations fail?

In this special episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, this is exactly what host David Green, and his guest Hebba Youssef, Chief People Officer at Workweek and founder of the popular newsletter 'I Hate It Here’ are going to unfold.

Delving into the intricacies of HR technology implementation, uncovering the common pitfalls and identifying strategies for success, in this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, listeners can expect to learn more about:

• The root causes behind the high failure rate of HR tech projects;

• How the adoption of HR tech influences the well-being and efficiency of HR professionals;

• Strategies for successful HR tech adoption among employees;

• Securing support and funding from top management for HR tech initiatives;

• The challenges posed by fragmented data and best practices for effective data integration and management

• The considerations HR professionals should keep in mind when integrating AI into their systems.

• Top advice on the actions HR professionals can take to ensure successful HR tech implementations.  

Sponsored by HiBob, the modern HR platform for how you and your people work today, this episode promises to be a valuable source for those looking to enhance the success of HR tech implementations.

 For more information on HiBob, check out the website at www.hibob.com.

[0:00:00] David Green: Welcome to the final episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast for 2023.  This year has seen plenty of growth and innovation in HR technology, with Gartner reporting earlier this year that 46% of HR leaders had cited HR technology as their top priority for investment.  This mirrored research by UNLEASH, which found that 70% of companies said that they would either increase or maintain their investment in HR technology throughout 2023.  Technology can streamline HR processes, improve candidate and employee experience, help tackle bias, and enable the collection and analysis of important people data that provide advanced insights into a company's workforce.  However, despite the immense benefits that these tools can have, research by Deloitte found that over 40% of HR tech implementations fail within the first two years.  So today, we are going to explore why HR tech can fail to deliver, and what we can do as HR and people analytics leaders to ensure a higher percentage of success. 

Joining me as our HR tech guru for the day is Hebba Youssef, the Chief People Officer at Workweek and the founder of the very popular newsletter, I Hate It Here.  Hebba has some fascinating insights on the world of HR tech, and as a Chief People Officer herself, is able to provide some astute guidance on ways to deliver a higher success rate of HR tech implementation.  So, without further ado, let's kick things off with a brief introduction from the lady herself, Heba Youssef.

Hebba, thanks for appearing on the show.  Please could you start by telling us a little bit about your career journey to becoming Chief People Officer at Workweek, and also a little bit about I Hate It Here? 

[0:01:59] Hebba Youssef: Well, it's a good story, so I hope I delight everybody with this.  I'm so honoured to be here, and I can't wait to talk a little bit about my career journey in HR.  So, like many HR people, I never wanted to be in HR.  I never thought this would be the journey for me, but I ended up on the path.  Instead of going into product management, I went on the HR path, which I frequently say, "People are now my product", which is probably a weird thing to say, now that I'm saying it out loud.  But I started off thinking that I was going to go work at a tech company to run product management, and I took a segue into learning and development where I led a global learning team for three years, travelled the world, trained over I think 1,000 employees by the time I left, and it was a 2,000-person company globally.  From there I went to work at a media startup.  I am what I call a startup queen; I have done four startups, and they always are a little bit chaotic when you're in HR.  And so I did that for two years and then went on to be a Head of People at a fintech company and then ended up at Workweek. 

Workweek is a very interesting story because the CEO, Adam Ryan, reached out to me about six months into my previous role and he said, "Hey, I'm starting a company, I don't have a name, I don't have a role, but I think you'd be great at it".  I was like, "What?  You know nothing about me, how would I be great at this role?"  And we ended up chatting for a little bit and I said, "Honestly, I'm not your person right now, I'm six months into another journey, I need to see that through".  A few months later, I noticed that one of my favourite newsletters that I had been reading about fintech had been purchased by Workweek.  And so, I reached back out just to catch up to see how things were going, and that catch-up ended up being scheduled for 15 minutes, lasting an hour and 45 minutes, and by the end of it they said, "We would do anything.  We want you to come work here, but we also want you to write a newsletter".  And I remember at the time thinking, "I've never written anything.  Why would you want me to write a newsletter?"  And they said, "Your passion and enthusiasm for HR just shines through.  And we think if you could write a newsletter, the way you talk to us about HR, it would resonate with a lot of HR people". 

So, I went on accepting the role.  And in September of last year of 2022, we launched I Hate It Here, which the name is inspired by the worst fear HR people might have that their employees truly do hate it there, and I think the feeling a lot of HR people have some days where we think we are in charge of everything, we're managing everyone's emotions, we're dealing with so much that maybe we hate it here too.  So, that launched last year and we've crossed over 100,000 subscribers. 

[0:04:30] David Green: Wow!

[0:04:30] Hebba Youssef: I've launched a podcast, a live event series, I've done live trainings, I've keynoted, it's been quite the journey for the last year.

[0:04:38] David Green: Well, we'll definitely get all the links to that as we wrap up at the end and we'll put those in the show notes for people as well.  You mentioned you've been in four startups, it can be quite chaotic, so presumably a lot of the time, you're effectively setting HR up in those organisations?

[0:04:53] Hebba Youssef: Yeah.  The first organisation I wasn't in HR; two, three, and four, I was in HR.  And you get there and there's no handbook, there are no policies, nobody has a concept of what HR actually is.  Everybody thinks HR is one thing and it's really another.  It's so funny, the last two startups I joined when they said, "Oh, this is Hebba, she's joining for HR", somebody instantly said, "Oh, HR's here, we can't have any more fun".  I remember thinking like, "But I'm a lot of fun.  Why would you think I'm not fun?"  But that's what a lot of people kind of think about when they think of HR, that it's policies, procedures, I can't do the things I want to do anymore.  And the reality is, we as HR leaders just want to empower all the employees to do what they've always done and do great work.  We're not there to hold anybody back.  I mean, we're there to stop you from doing horrible things to employees, but we're not there to stop the fun, if the fun is reasonable and safe. 

So, it's been interesting.  I think I have a lot of white hairs that you can't see, because I've worked at so many startups at this point, that every time I get in, just nothing surprises me anymore.  I'm like, "Oh, we don't have a policy for that?"  "Of course not".  "We don't know how we define a promotion?"  "Of course not".  "We don't have salary bans?  We don't have any sort of equity?"  So, it's been always fun for me because I love that beginning part.

[0:06:14] David Green: So, it's different every day.

[0:06:16] Hebba Youssef: Every day.  Oh, man, if someone asked me what my typical day is and I say, "I wake up at 9.00am, I think it's one thing.  And by 10.00pm, my day has entirely shifted".

[0:06:25] David Green: We've got a lot of HR professionals listening, maybe prospective Chief People Officers.  If you had to say to them, one piece of guidance you'd offer to them if they were starting HR in a startup, what would it be?

[0:06:39] Hebba Youssef: I think, get really good at prioritising.  Everybody else thinks something is urgent that is not really probably urgent.  And our instincts are, I do think, some of the best out there because we've seen it so many times.  And so, I think get really good at prioritising what is necessary to make the business run today, tomorrow, three months, six months down the line, and never let somebody tell you what the priorities are.

[0:07:06] David Green: Yeah, I think that's a great piece of guidance.  I think it probably applies to big, small companies, to be perfectly honest.  A lot of HR is about prioritising, because there's so many things you can do; do the stuff that's going to have the biggest impact on the business and on the workforce frankly, as well.  So yeah, really, really good.  So, Hebba, on your weekly newsletter, and I'll say it again, I Hate It Here, you recently published an article on HR tech stacks.  In your view, why is the adoption for HR tech so important for HR professionals?

[0:07:36] Hebba Youssef: So, this whole quarter I've been writing about HR tech, which is really fun for me because I am a tech nerd.  I love new products, I love exploring them, I love looking at how are we going to move HR forward.  And so, HR tech stacks to me are fascinating because if you ask your employees, "When was the last time you logged into the HR system?" a lot of them would say, "Oh, I just like logged in to put PTO in [or] I just need to look at this calendar", and it's never that they're incentivised or want to log in, it's almost like they're forced to by HR.  And so, I think the thing about your HR tech and your tech stack is thinking, "What is actually going to excite my employees, a tool that they actually want to use?"  Because if you're always forcing them, and it's always a push-pull, you're never going to see real adoption. 

I'm also not naïve enough to think someone's going to wake up and be like, "Oh, my God, I'm so excited to log into my HR tech system today", no one is going to do that.  But it's, how do we remove the barrier and really reframe their mind from, "I'm being forced to do this" to, "Oh, I actually maybe kind of want to do this, I want to give recognition to my manager, I want to celebrate that person's birthday, I want to say welcome to that new employee".  It's kind of just a reframe to really see true adoption, I think, in your HR tech.

[0:08:52] David Green: And I know we'll talk about buying technology a little bit later in the conversation, but I suppose a lot of that is, as consumers, we use pretty intuitive technology, it's personalised for us with recommendations, it's easy to use, you don't need to look at a big handbook, and a lot of technology we use as consumers is fun.  So, I suppose it's a bit of an onus on HR technology companies to make their tools slightly more addictive maybe, to use a phrase that Jason Averbrook has used before, "Make them addictive.  Forget about adoption, make them addictive".

[0:09:23] Hebba Youssef: Yeah, I would love that, if an HR tool was more fun.  There are some fun ones out there, but a lot of them just feel like they were built with the HR person's experience in mind, never with, "How are the employees actually interacting with this?"  I would probably rather scroll on TikTok, open Instagram, scroll on Twitter than I would to log into my HRIS, and I'm actually the admin.  So, that should say something about me!  And I'm looking forward to the day that I want to do the HRIS piece before I want to do a Twitter, a TikTok, or an Instagram.  But there's something about socialness that hasn't really been integrated into a lot of HR tools.

[0:10:05] David Green: So, this is another area where your initial ambition to get into product management probably helps you when it comes to evaluating potential HR technologies that you may use in your companies?

[0:10:16] Hebba Youssef: I am the most annoying person on a demo because I'll say, "Can you click that?  Can you do that?  Can it do this?  Show me the data".  And every single time, I think the person on the other side thinks that they're talking to somebody who's just going to randomly buy HR tech.  But I usually come with like 10 to 15 system requirements already written across potentially three different users.  And people look at me and they're like, "Why do you do this?"  And like I said, I started my career in tech, I learned to write really good user stories, requirements, I learned to talk to developers.  And so, when I brought that into HR, I think about the technology in the same way.  I'm very critical and it's very hard to get a gold star in my book of tech.

[0:10:55] David Green: Yeah, and it's about, as you said, some of these systems are designed for HR people and they should be designed with the employee at the centre, just as we would design a commercial product with the consumer at the centre.

[0:11:07] Hebba Youssef: Absolutely.  I want to make work fun.  A lot of things about are very regulated by the laws.  And so, we have to do things regardless, like we have to verify an I-9 in the States, but it's how do we actually take that and make that a fun experience for somebody rather than, "Oh, I'm just filling out paperwork [or] I just have to do my review [or] I have to submit my PTO".  I'm interested to see where the technology goes in the next five to ten years when we really think, consumer first.

[0:11:38] David Green: Yeah, I think we definitely need to go along that way.  And given the current situation that you've painted, Hebba, if we reference to a recent survey by Deloitte, over 42% of organisations surveyed as part of that report said that their HR tech implementations fail within the first two years.  Some of these technologies are quite expensive.  As someone who lives and breathes HR, why do you think HR implementations tend to fail? 

[0:12:04] Hebba Youssef: A lot of times, I think HR leaders get buy-in from whoever they report to potentially.  So, I report to our CEO but I also work closely with finance.  And so, in order for me to get buy-in for a tool, I have to get my CEO and my finance people on board to make the investment.  I think a lot of times, HR people forget that there is another group you need buy-in from and it's your employees.  And they're not just going to trust you to say, "Hey, we rolled out this really cool system, it's going to be so fun for you".  They want to feel like they have a say.  And so something that I've been talking to a lot of HR people about is, "Why don't you bring employees to the demo?"  Why don't you say, "Okay, I've already demoed this product, I've asked all my HR requirements, let's bring the employees in and make them feel like they have a voice", because I think that's ultimately why so much HR tech adoption fails, is you never ask the employees what they want. 

The reality is, we don't have to do what the employees want, but if they feel like they can voice an opinion, I feel like the journey to buy-in is just so much easier.  And if you get them to love the tool before you even roll it out, they're going to go tell their friends who are going to tell their friends.  It's going to grassroots grow an affinity for this product.  And the story is going to be, I loved it and I got to tell HR why I loved it.  So, I think we think a lot one way like, "I need to get buy-in from the powers that be", and we don't ever stop to think, "I need to get a buy-in from these employees who are going to be using it every day".

[0:13:36] David Green: What strategies have you found, other than getting employees involved obviously, what other strategies have you found most effective for encouraging employee buy-in and engagement with new HR technologies? 

[0:14:54] Hebba Youssef: Always asking their feedback, and I don't think feedback is a survey that you always have to do.  You could do a listening tour, you could have the managers ask, you could have other people on your team deployed to different departments to ask.  I think getting their feedback is really important and I think a lot of times, employees don't feel heard.  And so to solve that problem, you just have to ask them, and it takes asking them more than once, they're not instantly going to open up.  I just think the inherent distrust there is with employees towards HR makes them hesitate when they need to tell you something.  And so, I think if you can do your best to build a trust with them and say, "I honestly want your feedback, I want your opinion", and that means the second you roll it out, maybe at the three-month mark, maybe six months, even at your renewal, asking for feedback about the tools they're using and why goes a long way in my opinion.  I just think there's something to be said about your employees trusting you, and if they're coming to you with feedback, you have to listen.

[0:15:56] David Green: And have you done any work in the past around sort of understanding different personas of employees and how they might use the tool slightly differently at all?

[0:16:04] Hebba Youssef: Yeah, when I write my requirements, I actually write usually for three groups.  I say, as a manager, I need to be able to do X, Y, and Z; as an employee, I need to be able to do X, Y, and Z; and then it's always, as an executive, I need to be able to see my skip level, just drill down into my department.  I'm always thinking about those different personas because what everybody wants out of the system is different, and what everybody needs is also different.  And so, being able to tackle those three main groups, maybe you have four, maybe you have five, being able to get feedback from every persona out there is super important.

[0:16:3] David Green: That's a really good point.  And as you said, again, it talks to that adoption process because employees use it, but managers don't, and that's not good.  And if employees and managers use it, but leaders aren't looking at it, then that's probably not very helpful either.

[0:16:50] Hebba Youssef: You said managers and it made something go in my brain, but I was just thinking, your managers also bringing them on board earlier, the better, because they're the people who are really driving the behaviours and impacting your employees day to day.  I read this amazing stat somewhere, I need to go reference it, but that your manager has more of an impact on your mental health than your partner.  So, you're at home with this person all day long and somehow your manager who you're at work with all day long has a bigger impact on your life.  And so, if I'm thinking about tech and process and adoptions, if you just go straight for managers and you also get their buy-in, you also explain to them it's part of their job to help you get adoption on the system, I think then you'll see more employees adopting the tech and following the processes as well.

[0:17:39] David Green: Yeah, and I think we've seen increasingly now with some of the more sophisticated HR technology that's coming out, it's actually giving insights to managers about maybe how their behaviours may drive performance and engagement to their team, or otherwise, and giving them tips around, you know, "You haven't had a one-to-one with Hebba for a while, you might want to book a one-to-one with Hebba", you know, our data tells us that manager one-to-ones are very important in terms of engagement, retention, etc. 

[0:18:08] Hebba Youssef: And I think some managers are scared of that, by the way.  They're scared of being told they're not doing well and so then they avoid.  What happens is a lot of people are scared to give feedback, so they avoid.  And so, finding a system or tool that takes away that fear from the manager and truly says, "We're trying to make you better, we're actually trying to help you because your job is so overwhelming.  You have to coach all these people, you have to manage performance, you also are leading work, maybe you own a project.  That can be very overwhelming, so we got this tool in this system to actually help you do your job better". 

[0:18:42] David Green: Yeah, and it's hard being a manager and it's arguably harder to be a manager now than it's ever been.  You've got so many things coming at you, you've got the kind of hybrid element as well, so sometimes you're managing people in front of you, sometimes you're managing a lot of remote people, maybe you're distributing different geographies as well.  Yeah, and there's lots of demands from employees who expect more at work now, employee expectations, and leaders, so you're the meat in the sandwich.

[0:19:08] Hebba Youssef: It's an impossible job.  It feels like an impossible job sometimes for managers, and to add in a system that could potentially expose how good, how bad they're doing at the job can be really scary.  And so, I think framing it to managers as, "We actually got a tool to help you", I think changes the conversation completely.  It then goes from, "Oh, they're not trying to get me" to, "Oh, they're actually trying to make me better and make my job easier, this impossible job I have.

[0:19:36] Hebba Youssef: Let's move to another stakeholder, leadership buy-in.  As HR professionals, we understand the ROI for buying, well, mostly we understand the ROI for buying an HR technology tool; however, more than often, getting funding for the tool is often met with a resistance from the C-suite.  How can HR professionals go about gaining buy-in for their desired tool from the C-suite and maybe we can expand that conversation and talk about some of the other stakeholders that we need to get on side as well?

[0:20:07] Hebba Youssef: Yeah, I think the really interesting thing about HR is, I've observed this, and maybe people listening have also observed this, it feels like every other department asks for a budget for something and nobody asks them why, but when it comes to HR and you're like, "I want this HRIS", the first question everyone asks is why.  And everyone wants to give you an opinion on it.  And some days I'm like, "You don't ask our sales team why they need Salesforce to sell.  Why would you ask me why I need an HRIS to help effectively manage our employee experience?"  And so we're already starting, I feel like a lot of HR people, from a deficit where every other organisation is given the tools department, the tools they need to be successful.  And oftentimes, I feel like HR leaders are told, "Slash your budget, you already manage the most expensive part of the budget, which is headcount, so we can't give you more". 

But I think that is so short-sighted because at the end of the day, how productive and successful your company is going to be comes down to your employees.  And if you give them the tech they need to be successful and on the flipside, give your HR team the tech they need to spot potential retention issues, to spot performance issues ahead of time, you become even better as an organisation.  And so, I think I can't talk about getting buy-in without even acknowledging that everybody else seems to get it and we seem to be the last people who get approved. 

The second piece of that buy-in is always connecting it to the why.  So, if you have a CEO who's very business-oriented, they are thinking about the livelihood of the business because it is very much their company, their founders, their CEO, I think connecting back the why you need the tool to how you can help the business perform is the most important thing you could do.  And I don't think that's truly revolutionary, but I think a lot of HR people forget to say it.  They forget to say, "I need this tool, not just because my life is going to be easier, but because I'm going to be able to spot potential retention issues before an employee chooses to leave.  Oh, and by the way, if that employee chooses to leave, on average, it actually costs me three to four times their salary to replace them". 

So, I think when HR becomes the more data-minded organisation, deeply aligned with finance, about actual cost to the business, I find the buy-in then is a lot easier, because you have a CEO that says, "Oh, she has thought about all of these things, and we're going to actually save money".  And I think the other part of buy-in that's incredibly hard is, you don't instantly see the impact of an HR software.  So, you don't implement a tool and then all of a sudden tomorrow, everyone's engaged.  That's completely unrealistic.  And so, I think setting those expectations correctly like, "I'm going to implement this system.  In 3 months, here's a milestone we're going to meet.  In 6 months, here's a milestone.  In 12 months, I'm actually hoping our retention goes up and our engagement goes up, and here's how I'm going to do that using this system".  But I think setting the stage very clearly that this is a thing that is going to take potentially six months to even see the needle move a little bit, then makes the stakeholders more rational about the decision they're making and better informed.

[0:23:21] David Green: And I'm guessing some of the other stakeholders you need to work with, particularly the startup, obviously your technology and IT team, maybe legal.  I don't know if you could talk to maybe those stakeholders or maybe other stakeholders that you would work with actively on this.

[0:23:35] Hebba Youssef: I think there are always, like when I start any project, the first column I always have is key stakeholders.  It's like, "Who do I need final sign-off from?"  That's step one.  Step two is like, "Who do I need everyone's opinion on it?"  And that's where legal, IT, potentially your engineering, there's a lot of people that you have to think through getting their buy-in on it.  And legal is a big one, always making sure that they understand what we're doing with the data in the system, who has access to it, what are we going to do, what are we liable for, that's really important.  Your IT team making sure that you can integrate it in a way that's easy and simple, is there SSO; are you moving it into another system; does it integrate with that system; how do the APIs work together?  So, thinking through that as well, super-important. 

But I think from there, always having your list of who's my second-tier people to get all of their thoughts and feedback on is really important, and that's where people like legal, like IT, even your managers come into play, because you're going to want their opinions on, "Is this feasible?"  And I think as HR people, sometimes we think we know everything, "We've used this tool so intensely, we can anticipate everyone's feedback and movement", and it's so short-sighted because the rest of the teams are going to expose things that might never cross my mind.

[0:24:52] David Green: Really good, and you've already talked about employees as stakeholders as well.  And I guess one other one would be, depending on the size of your organisation, if you have one, a procurement department, being close with your procurement partner in terms of if we're going to go out with an RFP, making sure you get the specifications right, etc.

[0:25:12] Hebba Youssef: Yeah.  At a startup, less people involved, totally.  When you're at a bigger organisation, I've also gone through that process of securing software at a bigger organisation, and there are more hoops to jump through.  Like at this point at a startup, I get to say, I want the software and I maybe have to ask four people what they think.  At bigger organisations, you're looking at a longer time horizon.  And I also think the one important group of people who I always stay super-close to is our finance team.  I will buddy up to any finance department because they are also going to tell me, how does this tool scale?  I can do the simple math, but they're going to be the ones who tell me, "If we add 50 people to our headcount next year, our software also goes up".  And that's another thing I think a lot of people don't think about.  They'll implement a costly software, find themselves rapidly scaling, and then saying, "Oh, wow, I can't manage this budget anymore, it's too much".

[0:26:05] David Green: I've read a study by Mercer a couple of weeks ago and it was asking Chief People Officers what they wish they'd known before they assumed their role, and I think the highest was 41% wish they'd known more about people data and analytics.  So there's definitely that change coming on.  And obviously, you're passionate about data, which is good to hear, and you've spoken and written about the challenges of fragmented data and HR systems.  How does this fragmentation affect HR operations, and what are some of the best practices for integrating and managing data across different platforms?  Because let's be honest, sometimes you have a learning platform, sometimes you have a recruiting platform, other times you have an HRAS.  How do you kind of work all those different systems to get the information that you need out to support decisions, and help leaders use data to make decisions?

[0:27:46] Hebba Youssef: The fragmented system is truly what I call Hell, because that means you're pulling down data and it's moment-in-time data too; that really bothers me.  The second you pull that data down or you analyse it, the next day it's outdated, unless you have like an automated report, which means then you're pulling down data from learning, you're pulling down data from recruiting, you're pulling down data maybe from your HRIS.  You're building this beautiful report to give you insights and the second you're done building it, it's outdated.  And so that is just the part that drives me the most insane and it's a reality a lot of HR people are in. 

I read a report recently that said HR people are using anywhere up to 25 tools.  And if those tools don't all talk to each other somehow, then you're spending a lot of your time trying to do something that could be done for you if you just stayed in one or two systems that talk to each other.  And so that's the other thing.  I think integrations now are huge, where like Greenhouse integrates with your HRIS, and that way then the data is in one place and you can look at a report.  I think your worst-case scenario is when the data is in several systems, you're pulling down that manual data, you're doing your blending, and then you're looking at a report that is obsolete in five minutes.  And so, I think when you're thinking about tools that you want and why, always looking at what do they integrate with, because if they can integrate with your HRIS, I'm sure there's a really good reporting functionality there where then you can automate your dashboards so that you're not doing all the data and all the work. 

The other interesting thing about data is, they've shown that doing repetitive tasks actually increases your burnout, and I think about that quite a bit.  When you're thinking about what you're doing day to day in HR, we do have one of the highest cited burnout percentages across any function and highest job change across LinkedIn of any function.  And so, I think about data through that lens as well.  If HR people are doing this repetitive task, that pulling down the data, doing all the things, running the report, and then the next day they have to do the same thing all over again because their systems aren't integrated, they're only going to burn out faster.  And then, that work keeps them away from doing the really juicy, big, strategic work that can change an organisation, that can push an organisation into the future.  And so coming back to it, finding a way to put your data or to only exist in less systems that talk to each other is much better than spreading yourself across ten that you then can't actually make any informed decisions about the data.

[0:30:28] David Green: Yeah, it's that kind of conundrum, isn't it?  When you're selecting technology, do you go for best of breed or do you go for something that maybe has an HRS that has a recruiting platform in it, the learning platform, etc?  Now, it depends, because there's no right answer on this, is there, but it's certainly a consideration that you need to think about, as you said, about how things are going to integrate together, and there isn't a one system to rule the law probably anyway, but obviously the more you can minimise the number of technologies you're using, probably the better.  And I guess one of the luxuries, if we can call it that, of setting HR up in a startup is you've kind of got a blank piece of paper to do that.

[0:31:08] Hebba Youssef: I have one system right now and I'm going to be very cautious before I implement anything else.  And there are things I want to do that that system doesn't do, and I've had to make the decision not to do them for the time being.  And I've weighed the pros and cons quite heavily, because I don't want to introduce mayhem and chaos that will never scale properly for just this tiny little thing I want.  Maybe there's a different way to do it.  And I also think HR tech is moving into that platform model.  Like Workday was always a huge platform, but it's interesting seeing the trends with like Rippling and Lattice, where both of them started off as one thing and now they're becoming something else.  So, Lattice just launched its HRIS and they started as a performance management tool.  And so you're looking at these players in the space, these up-and-comers, and they're all really trying to spread to be that platform because they have heard from HR people how awful it is to work across 10, 15 systems, and you're not getting your investment returned when you're spending your dollars on so many systems, because you can't actually transact on any of the data. 

[0:32:16] David Green: How do you see AI and machine learning shaping the future of HR functions, and what should HR professionals keep in mind when into integrating AI into their systems?

[0:32:27] Hebba Youssef: I think a lot of tools are integrating AI for the HR people already.  So, I think a lot of them already automate and do a lot of things with AI already.  So, I think that part is very interesting, that it's already embedded in a lot of systems.  I think if you're an HR person, thinking about how you are going to automate your life will make your life so much better.  And so, thinking about AI like, "Can I automate this communication?  Can I automate this onboarding process?  Can I automate this offboarding process?"  Being able to do that then takes off the repetitive tasks off your list, and you're able to then go do the more strategic, fulfilling type of work.  But the cost is, you just have to be mindful of what AI is capable of and what it isn't capable of.  And that, I think, a lot of us don't know enough about AI yet, and I foresee that that's going to be a real skill like automating, working with AI that all of us are going to have to learn because it's going to either be embedded in a system or we're going to leverage an outside thing to make it happen.

[0:33:33] David Green: What criteria should HR buyers look out for when selecting HR technology for their business? 

[0:33:48] Hebba Youssef: Such a good question.  Definitely that it can work in a hybrid or remote environment.  So, I think the average company right now is still in the hybrid remote world and if you are hiring globally, you should make sure your system is able to do that; and spoiler alert, not a lot of systems can do that, not a lot of systems are built to represent a global workforce.  And that I think is just a really interesting thing.  If you're a US based company, then you're a US based company, you're not going to go global.  But there's talent everywhere.  And to think that your employees might want to move and live somewhere else, and that you don't have to worry about that, is short-sighted.  And so I think like one of the things is thinking about, are you a remote, in-person, or hybrid organisation; and does your HR tech support that?  That's step one. 

I also just think the next big thing is usability.  When you look at it, do you think this was built in 1998, or do you think this was built in 2023?  And so, finding something that's usable so that your employees are excited to log in and use it is a game changer.  And there are HR tools out there that aren't really built with a usability functionality in mind, they're just doing the job and getting it done.  But I don't think that's how you should think about it; you should think about usability.  The other thing is your data.  A lot of HRISs, you want the reporting to be one of the best features out there.  So instantly, whenever I analyse an HR tool, I'm always looking at, show me your reporting, show me your out-of-the-box dashboards, show me how you calculate the KPIs, show me what kind of findings I can figure out in the system, and that is just a big selling point for me as well.

[0:35:28] David Green: Yeah, and that's all part of the business case that you might make to the CEO and the CFO as well, because obviously one of the benefits that they can get out of any technology implementation is data.  And then, maybe one other piece I might add to that, and it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on this, if you're choosing between different technology firms, the ones that are more willing to partner, I guess, is really important, especially if you're making your first steps as a startup, buying HR technology maybe for the first time.

[0:35:57] Hebba Youssef: Customisation can be a pro and a con, because if you over-customise everything, probably there are inefficiencies there.  But having an HRIS that understands what you are trying to do and is able to be flexible to what you need for your environment is key.  I have worked with some systems where they say, "Oh, we just don't do that".  And I have to say, "Then I can't work with you, because my environment is unique and it has this one need, and if I can't get this need met, I can't implement the software".  And then I've worked on the flipside with companies that are able to customise, and then it really feels like the system is actually built for your organisation, rather than you're trying to fit a square and a round peg.  Because that's what it can feel like sometimes with HRS is, "Oh, why are we doing this?  This is not a company standard".  If it's not a company standard, why would you do it in the tech?  It's like a mismatch of values then. 

[0:36:56] David Green: So to wrap up before we head to the question of the series, what key piece of advice would you give to HR professionals or maybe chief people officers like yourself to help them with their future HR tech implementation projects?

[0:37:09] Hebba Youssef: I mean, always get the buy-in, we talked about that earlier.  Make sure that it's usable, that it's something that would excite your employee to actually use.  And then, really think about where your organisation is going.  So don't just buy for the now.  Buying for the future is really strategic, and it also can be really hard if you don't know where your organisation is going.  And so I think starting the exercise of understanding where you're headed in the next one to three years could be super-powerful in helping you select a tool that's going to be able to grow and scale with you.  Because a lot of tools will truly tell you they're able to do what you want them to do, but don't trust them, because I always ask for a sandbox.  I always say, "In order for me to buy your tool, I need to have a sandbox instance where I can play with it so that I can understand if I'm going to be able to use it".  And I think if anyone tells you like they can't give you a sandbox or they can't help you do that, I would just be wary of what it is they're showing you versus what the tool can actually do.

[0:38:14] David Green: So, Hebba, we're through to the question of the series.  So, this is the one we're asking every guest on this series of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, and it's our last episode before Christmas, so you get to have the final say.  So, as we approach the end of 2023, what do you think will be the key priorities for HR as we head into 2024?

[0:38:34] Hebba Youssef: Retention.  I think everybody is going to be worried about retaining their employees.  And retention is so much more than, "Are our employees staying?"  It's, "How are we supporting and cultivating their growth and development at the organisation?"  Because I think we just went through a very interesting three years of massive hiring, then we did the layoffs, then people are cutting budgets.  I think the thing people are going to be most focused on in 2024 is, "How do I keep my talent?" because that is talent you have invested in money, time, and resources.  And to replace them, it'll cost three to four times their salary.  And so, I think every HR leader right now is wondering, "What do I have to fix to keep these employees here and happy and engaged".

[0:39:26] David Green: So we may hear, I dare to say it in case we do, the Great Resignation part two.

[0:39:31] Hebba Youssef: Part two.  I don't know if people are going to be leaving as much.  I think a lot of people are going to stay put until the market settles a little bit.  But that staying put can still really hinder your organisation. 

[0:39:46] David Green: Yes, if they're not performing.

[0:39:48] Hebba Youssef: Yeah, so you have to continue to think about, "How do I enable the people who want to stay or are being forced to stay?  How do I still get the best work out of them?" 

[0:39:57] David Green: So, Hebba, for our listeners who'd like to connect with you or follow the work that you're doing at I Hate It Here, how can they get in touch with you, find out more what you're doing at Workweek, and subscribe to your newsletter and find out more about your podcast?

[0:40:09] Hebba Youssef: I love it.  You can find me on LinkedIn, Hebba Youssef obviously, my name is in this thing, and you can subscribe to I Hate It Here.  Honestly, you could just google I Hate It Here, and it's the first thing that comes up.  I have one SEO!  It was the highlight of my day when I googled it, and I was number one, but you can google it and subscribe to the newsletter.

[0:40:27] David Green: And congratulations on reaching 100,000 subscribers in such a short period of time.  That's very impressive.

[0:40:33] Hebba Youssef: Thank you, I'm honoured.

[0:40:35] David Green: Well, you've prompted me to go and check it out a little bit more, so I will certainly be doing that over the Christmas holidays.  And other than that, Hebba, I just want to say a huge thank you for sharing your time and expertise with listeners.  Really enjoyed the conversation.

[0:40:48] Hebba Youssef: Thank you so much for having me.  I had a blast.