In recent months, we've been inundated with news of economic down turns, and mass layoffs in high-profile companies. Though, as HR professionals, we know all too well that not planning your labour cost-cutting strategies effectively can have significant unintended costs for both the company and its employees.

That's why in this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, David sits down with Oliver Shaw, the CEO of Orgvue, to discuss the importance of effective planning in the face of economic uncertainty.

This conversation will cover:

• The specific challenges companies are experiencing today due to economic downturns

• The importance of effective planning to avoid unintended consequences of cost-cutting strategies

• The steps that companies can take to plan for the future and avoid knee-jerk reactions;

• Planning for the unplanned and preparing for unforeseen circumstances

• Workforce planning and organizational design coming together under people analytics

• Building skills from workforce planning and using them for organizational design and vice versa

Support from this podcast comes from Orgvue. You can learn more by visiting: https://www.orgvue.com/

David Green: Over recent months, there's been a lot of talk about an economic slowdown and a slew of layoffs at prominent companies.  It seems that the only certainty of this decade is an abundance of uncertainty, and uncertainty can lead companies to make decisions quickly, sometimes too quickly.  In a recent research study, Orgvue and Vanson Bourne interviewed 500 senior business decision-makers from global organisations with over 3,000 employees. 

The headline findings included that 93% of business leaders say they've made decisions with cost-cutting in mind, of which 38% later regretted those decisions.  The main reasons for this are the loss of talent they later realised they needed, loss of employee engagement and the negative impact on operational efficiency and productivity.  As such, I'm delighted that my guest today is Oliver Shaw, CEO at Orgvue.  We'll dig a bit more into the research and Oliver will also share more on how companies can navigate these turbulent times by having the right planning in place.  We will discuss how companies can plan for the unplanned and how workforce planning and organisational design are coming together, and coupled with the right data, can help organisations plan for the future. 

So, whether you're looking to improve your organisational design, optimise your workforce planning, or just curious about planning for the future of your business, stay tuned for an engaging and informative discussion.

Today, I am delighted to welcome Oliver Shaw, CEO at Orgvue, to the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  Oliver, welcome to the show, it's a pleasure to have you on.  Before we dive into the interview, can you share with our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got to where you are today?

Oliver Shaw: Yeah, of course, and great to be here, David, thank you for having me.  I guess my background in the space that I'm in, which is around managing organisations, has always been an interest for me.  So, I did a business degree.  I left university and became a business analyst, dealing immediately with how you organise the businesses and processes to work.  And then my career moved through a series of junctions in financial services, which were broadly around, how do you manage large groups of people, in the end building quite a large insurance business.

Then, in 2009, I came out of that and started working in tech, and the first business I worked in was a payroll business, and that brought me into providing services into the HCM space.  And then between 2009 and 2018, I built the IRIS Human Capital Management business, which at the time that I left was probably in the top five software providers to HR in the UK, and that's core HRIS and payroll.  I came out of that and spent a bit of time in data tech, which was actually looking at retail and the pricing of fuel and using AI to help retailers maximise margin.  And then I came to Orgvue.

The reason I'm at Orgvue is that it brings together some things.  When I was in financial services, I was dealing with the problem of how do you align strategy to people in real time, with thousands of resources, trying to work out how we get the best result.  And then, one of the issues that I identified whilst I was in HMC tech was, we have this huge digitisation rolling through, we have a huge issue with HR departments trying to find their strategic voice in organisations, and it all comes down to the Orgvue question which is, "Where are the people; and what are they doing; and how do we organise them in the best way?"

David Green: That's great, and I think you joined Orgvue recently, didn't you, a few months ago back in January?  And Orgvue have kindly sponsored the Digital HR Leaders podcast a few times.  But for those listeners that are unaware, can you just give an overview of what Orgvue does and how it helps customers?

Oliver Shaw: I can.  So, Orgvue is a business that comes out of a consulting background around the organisational design and transformation problem.  That led to the creation of some tools which help organisations really move from strategy through to people, and how do you understand what your organisation looks like today, what do you want it to look like in the future, and how do you manage that transformation.  And so, if you think about it, the OD is the way in which the CEO really should manifest their strategy. 

So, the first thing that we do is we have a graph database which has no schemas, so that allows you to bring lots of the disparate data in HR into one place.  We then have the ability to paint with data, so you can now see your organisation, I'd like to say in 3D, it's not really in 3D, but you're seeing it really as it is and you're able to interact with it dynamically.  That allows you to build your design based on where it really is, then you can track your steps and see all the impacts of any changes that you're making.  Then, that gives you an ability to manage organisational effectiveness as well, so you can see your spans and layers, you can see where you've got spare resources, where you've got areas that are in the wrong place, and so on.  So, you can really bring your strategy to life in the way in which your organisation looks, execute that change and understand the impacts really quickly.

David Green: Yeah, that's really helpful to understand.  And obviously, as a relatively new CEO, what's your vision for the future of Orgvue over the next few years?

Oliver Shaw: So, we have two things that we're bringing together.  The first piece is that the Orgvue product, which comes out of the idea of managing projects, is becoming an area that's a centre of excellence in large organisations, particularly where they experience change.  So, the product is changing from being about how do I do the transformation, to how do I make this a continuous part of what I do; how do I make this a discipline?  So, that's about evolving the product so that it supports a centre of excellence in a business and becomes the way in which they manage the effectiveness of their organisation all the time.

The second piece that we think joins closely onto that is the evolution of the workforce plan, so this real view that you can go from strategy through to people, that you can understand how the skills, the activities, the individuals that you have interact with your OD over time to create the right organisation.  I was with a client last week who is engaged with us at the moment and have been for a while, and what they're doing is building their organisation for 2035.  So, that's not about rapid transformation, that's about long-term architecture of their organisation.

David Green: That's really interesting what you say actually, because we used to talk about transformation as kind of almost suggesting it was a one-time thing, or something you did every few years.  And I think as you said, it's continuous now, isn't it?  The world we're living in, you continually look to be adjusting the design of your organisation and making sure, as you said, you're getting the right link between strategy and people.

Oliver Shaw: Well, even if you ignore the black swan events, and I don't have the stats, David, but if you just looked at the Fortune 500 or the FTSE 100, what's going to drive change?  CEO change, well that probably happens every three to five years; strategy change, probably relating to that, but three to five years; some event that means that you're not performing as you said you were going to; and then some macro change.  That probably means that you're going through significant change, at least in 70% of organisations, once a year, and that just is the way we live today.

David Green: Yeah, the world's become a much faster place, which we're going to talk about a little bit as well.  You alluded to the fact of black swan events, and obviously we've seen a few of those in this decade.  I think if anything can summarise this decade in one word, it would probably be uncertainty.  We've had the pandemic, the biggest pandemic for a century; we've had the most significant war in Europe for 75 years; and G7 countries have been experiencing double-digit inflation for the first time this century, so there's a lot been happening, and that's just three events that have been happening.

Given the work that you're doing and the conversations you're having with customers, and in this current context of business landscape, what are some of the specific challenges that you're experiencing when you're talking to clients today and how, and you've probably alluded to it a little bit, but how can Orgvue help organisations overcome those challenges?

Oliver Shaw: So, the fundamental issue for most people is the fact that the data that they need in this space is fragmented.  So, that might be that there's some finance information that's relevant, there's some payroll information that's relevant, there's some information in the HRIS which is key.  It might be that you want to bring in talent or skills information, competency pieces together.  So, point one is, how do you bring that together and make sense of the layers of that data and how it interacts?  It's incredibly complex.  And that data environment is much wider than it was even five years ago. 

In 2015, I used to talk to people about the adoption in HRIS was meaning that we were moving to a digitalisation of HR, which would end up looking a bit like the digitalisation of marketing did between 2000 and 2010.  Now, that hasn't actually matured quite yet and I suspect the pandemic's an issue, right, it's a big block of time in the middle where we've been running around like crazy people with our hair on fire.  But the reality is, that's really there, and that ability to bring that data together is the first piece that Orgvue allows you to do.

The second thing is that if you're doing this stuff with a combination of spreadsheets, or specific charting software, or even Excel, it's really, really difficult for you to keep track of what's happening and to really understand what you're landing on, but you're continually having to rework the benefits, the impacts of what it is that you're doing; and Orgvue helps you directly there.

The final piece is about activation, so what is it you're actually going to do and how are you going to take that into your core process systems, your HRIS, your applicant tracking, your communication to make that happen.  So, in its core set, that's where Orgvue would help you.  More broadly, if you keep having to do this, the ability to be able to quickly access that data in a system and understand what you might change and what that means, or what impacts or opportunities you have, becomes much more important.  So, where we see clients moving towards a centre of excellence, that's exactly what they're seeing.  We have to do this well, we have to do this a lot; let's make sure we're set up to be able to do it.

David Green: Yeah, makes a lot of sense.  And, we're going to talk a little bit about some of the challenges that companies are facing at the moment and a link to planning and OD.  So obviously, we've seen a number of companies, particularly in the tech sector, announcing mass layoffs, some even doing multiple rounds in fairly quick succession.  Many commentators have suggested that these are kneejerk reactions to the economic downturn.  What are your thoughts?  I know you've done some research recently at Orgvue around making quick decisions when there are economic headwinds blowing in your organisation.

Oliver Shaw: So, the first thing, I'm a bit of a contrarian, David, so I'm going to start with a contrarian view, which is the businesses that -- you know, Amazon are in the news, Facebook have been in the news.  In the last two years, Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft have hired 700,000 people and they've let 60,000 go, so what's the story? 

I'm not saying that they're not in a radically different place and I'm not saying that things haven't changed because they certainly have, and in fact I was wandering in today talking to my brother about the fact that in a sense, Facebook and Google are experiencing what TV channels used to experience in previous downturns, which is they are just an advertising medium in many cases, and so therefore the winds of economic change blow quite hard in that space.  I think there are undoubtedly real impacts on them, but we need to put this into the context of ten years of incredible growth and indeed, a very small, marginal change in how things move forward.

But moving to the research, what our research says, "Act in haste and you'll regret it".  So, 90%-plus of the business leaders we interviewed said they had made changes on a kneejerk basis, and around a third of them said that they regretted the changes that they had made.  And one of the interesting things, David, going right back to where we started, I wrote my degree dissertation on the impact of redundancies on a business.  And even back to the 1950s, the research says that without doing it really well, without doing it in a very managed and clear communication, engaged way, you will end up having to do it again, because you'll see productivity and business outcomes drop as a result of the changes that you made, so you'll have to come back round again.

So, when you say some people have been round two or three times, that's one of the reasons they're doing it, because it's either not been enough, or there have been a bunch of negative impacts from what they've done.

David Green: We talked a little bit about the black swan events and if we analyse those, it teaches us that even if we plan three to five years ahead, there are always going to be unforeseen circumstances that inevitably change our plan, so this is probably a tough question to answer.  So my question is, how can you plan for the unplanned?

Oliver Shaw: Well, you can't.  But what you can do, I used to work for -- he was a crazy guy, but I used to work for a CEO who raced motorbikes, Grand Prix, 200 mph bikes.  And what he said was, if you were spending 95% of your time staying on the bike, if you hit an oil slick, you're dead.  So what you have to do is you have to make what you do every day 5% of your mental capacity.  And then what that does is leave you with 90% to think about all the stuff that you didn't anticipate or you didn't know was going to happen or where it's going to come through.

If you think about how sportsmen work, or indeed I ride horses in my spare time, it's a similar sort of thing; if you're just staying on, it's not going to work.  If you're just hanging on to your business, if all of your capacity of all of your teams is just spent running around getting the day-to-day work, then actually when something comes out of leftfield, you're going to have a real problem.  If you have the capacity to say, "Right, we've got an operation, we know how it runs, we can see what's changing, what's working, what's not working and we've got an activity plan", something comes out of leftfield and you go, "Right, we've got all the data, we can sit back now and think".

We had one here two weeks ago.  I get a phone call on Thursday night saying, "Where's your cash deposits.  SVB's in trouble".  Crisis mode, right, but by Sunday night we knew what we were going to do, we knew that we were okay.  We were actually at that point talking about, "How does this affect our mobilisation for next year's plan if we've only got less cash than we thought because some of it's stuck in the US?"  That was because we had some of the data and we're not using all our capacity to think through the day-to-day.  It's going to happen; you can't avoid it.

David Green: I think what's been interesting with some of these events, I mean that's a great example there, where having that flexibility, that muscle, that when you do need to plan quickly because a situation's happened, as long as you pull the right people together and the right data, you can still make smart decisions.

Oliver Shaw: Well, I think also, David, one of the things you can do is you can do some scenario stuff.  So, you can do some things where you go, "What would you do if…?"  And we all have BCPs, right, Business Continuity Plans, and the whole point of doing that is so that people are not freelancing around the problem when something happens to your business.  As soon as you start imagining how you might work around those issues, you're going to have problems. 

So actually sometimes sit there going, "Well, what risks have I got; and what would I do if that crystalised; and do I have a plan if that happens?"  Now, this doesn't need to be extreme, but that risk-based management approach is not a bad thing to have in your toolbox.

David Green: So, in a growing number of companies, we're seeing that organisational design and workforce planning are coming together.  I know that's something we spoke about a couple of weeks ago, and actually some of the customers that we work with at Insight222, so it's predominantly the people analytics leader in big, global companies, we're seeing that org design and workforce planning is actually coming under the umbrella of people analytics as well actually, which is quite interesting.  It makes sense, I guess, when you think about it.  But I wonder at Orgvue, how are you seeing these functions coming together?

Oliver Shaw: Yeah, so we're also seeing the other way, David, which is that OD and workforce planning are coming together under the OD competency set, if you like.  So, one of the things and themes here is that workforce planning is still quite undefined as a discipline.  So, is it simply about taking the budget and the financial plan and casting that into some sort of phased recruitment plan, which allows you to fill it up; or, is it more complex than that?  Are we actually saying, "Well, I've got this organisation shape and this is how I'm going to feed people into that organisation shape, and this is how I'm going to develop people into spaces over time. 

We have one of the big US banks where Orgvue is used to talent slate the CEO's preferred, if you like, future leaders' programme.  So, we're not a succession planning tool, that's not what we are, but what you could do is you could see your organisation and you can see where your talent is, you can move it around in that picture.  So, the two things are quite intrinsically linked.  I think we're intentionally relaxed about the idea that people analytics can get value from Orgvue, or that indeed OD people can get value from workforce planning. 

What's important is to be engaged in the debate with clients in how they think that that is being developed.  So you kind of have -- I mean, using Anaplan as an example, you have functionality dropping out of Anaplan which is talking about workforce planning off the back of a budget; you clearly have the Adaptive route where you've got Workday pushing into the space and coming at it from a point of view of, it's HR analytics and then we move into the planning; and then you have our view which is, how do you take this OD and make that come to life in a plan?  All those approaches are valid.

David Green: That's really helpful actually, because it's good to hear that actually from a firm like yours, that all the approaches are valid, and I guess it depends on the organisation, doesn't it; it depends on the organisation and the problem they're trying to solve?

Oliver Shaw: Yeah, look, I was having a conversation with an OD leader in the US a couple of weeks ago, a Fortune 500 business, and what they said to me was, look, I've been doing OD transformation for years, and they described it as being two types of HR leader: a talent focus leader and a systems thinking leader.  So, in her mind, the split between a systems thinking leader, who would go to OD first, "I'm building a system, how do I get a workforce plan that delivers a system?"; talent's going to say, "It's not about the design, I have to get the people in but it's about hiring the right people into my organisation". 

But actually, if you think beyond that, David, it becomes more complicated because actually, probably, half of the organisations don't have either of those things.  So actually, if they're still procedural led, or the HR maturity is not as high as that, or they're hamstrung by systems, so they might have chaotic structures, they might have traditional, very stiff kind of structures.  At one stage, a different job, but I was talking to some guys about scheduling, and they were talking about British Steel, or that which became British Steel, and they said that some of their work patterns in their scheduling hadn't changed since 1948!  They've missed all the black swan events, "We're still doing the same thing as we did 80 years ago!"

So, there's a variety of approaches to this, a variety of maturity that the thinking's developed.  But my view is, look, OD and particularly organisational effectiveness should be, and will become a key CEO concern.  How do I make sure that my strategy is manifested in my organisation?  10% of organisations do it well; 90% of organisations don't achieve their strategic objectives.  I'm not a believer in coincidental numbers, I think those two numbers are related, okay.  So, when you drop down below that, any plan's better than no plan.  A plan that's based on skills and activity and the talent and resources that you've got; brilliant.  A plan that goes out over eight or ten years; amazing.  But any plan's better than no plan at all.

David Green: And why is it that those 10% of organisations do it well; what is it that they do differently, in your experience, from the other 90%?

Oliver Shaw: So, I think there's two parts to the story.  One is a realisation that the organisation is a system and it's there to deliver outcomes, and the way it's shaped will deliver those outcomes.  But then also, you need to have an awareness that you have a clear idea of how strategy turns into changing those outcomes in a way in which you're going to be organised, and that's quite a rare combination of things. 

CEOs come at this from a different point of view.  I wouldn't want to cast aspersions on Elon Musk, but he strikes you as a very visionary, very intuitive sort of a leader, and I'm sure he's got people around him that are extremely organised and make the organisations work.  But is he going to be concerned with, "Is the organisation following my strategy?"  No, he's going to say to somebody else, "Go do that for me".  The CEO of the bank I was talking about, he really cares about this deeply personally.  We have a spans and layers chart, which he uses, and on a regular basis he'll turn round to his extended leadership team and say, "Let's turn to page 6", it really matters to him.  So, it depends a lot on where individuals' focuses are and where they're going.

My view, and I have a passion for the question, "How do HR leaders become strategic?" this is one of the routes to becoming strategic, "Let me show you what this is, let me show you what that means to you and your ability to hit your aims, or get to the things that you want to get to.

David Green: What advice would you offer HR or business leaders listening?  Should they build the skills for workforce planning and then use them for org design, or vice versa?

Oliver Shaw: In most cases, people don't have a dynamic picture of their organisation.  I think that's really important.  So, that ability to visualise what you've actually got, in a dynamic way, and interact with it, and then overlay dimensions, that's got to be a starting point.  It's not the only starting point, but it's a starting point.  I suspect if I was a talent-led CHRO, then I would say all that matters to me is getting the right people in the right places and it will work.  And I think it probably will work, but you're probably not in control of it. 

So, I think the two things, you can't really say one is better than the other, or one comes first, but it feels to me like having a view of your organisation in a way that you can interact with it and you can track it and you can understand what that really means and how you're allocating resources and how that fits with your strategic aims, or the way in which you want your resources to be distributed, that key question of, "Where is everybody today; and what do they do?", that feels like a real baseline to me.

David Green: Yeah, and maybe the question is more, can you have one without the other?  You need both, which I guess is why companies are more increasingly bringing these together.

Oliver Shaw: Yes, I think that's right.

David Green: And obviously why, you mentioned earlier actually, Oliver, that obviously Orgvue is known as a tool that really supports good organisational design.  You mentioned that you're building out a workforce planning tool as well; is that partly related to that point?

Oliver Shaw: Exactly.  What we talk about is strategy through to people.  So, my view, when we think about the black swan events, there are some other things that are coming which are profoundly challenging and will affect the way in which we work for the rest of our careers, but how our sons and daughters will work in theirs.  The demographic changes that are happening are fundamental.  So, this idea that you can cycle resources and move people out and then re-hire them, or hire them somewhere else, there isn't going to be lots of young people that either want to be treated like that, or are available with the right skills to run that through.  And that demographic challenge is global, it isn't just restricted to the developed economies.

On top of that, you have all the changes in the way in which people want to work, which means that we can't stand still and say that we will be able to allocate people to that place for that length of time every day to do these things; that's not necessarily the way in which people imagine that they want to be.  And then you have a third change which is the impact of, whether you call it predictive analytics or automation or AI, on the way in which people are going to work going forwards.

We have a case with a client that are using a few technologies to understand how some of their administration functions, where they have lots of people at the moment, will be changed by AI over time and then, so rather than dealing with that at that point and saying, "Well, we're just closing down that unit of 2,000 people", what they're trying to do is to use learning and development to be able to get those people to a place where they have other skills that are relevant elsewhere in the organisation, when that time comes.  That's incredible thinking.  It will be cheaper, it will be more effective, it will engage people, it will restrict the need to affect people's lives over time and put them out into the workforce to find something else to do; it's incredible. 

But it's obvious, isn't it?  But we could never do it before because we didn't have the information, we didn't have it in a way we could consume it and we didn't have systems that allowed us to put it all together in one place.

David Green: Yeah, and I guess that's one of the big challenges, isn't it, if we think about it moving forward?  Obviously, we've heard a lot about generative AI and stuff in the last few months and clearly that's going to have a big impact on the future of work; but we see certain tasks being automated potentially, but we also see potentially the creation of new roles because of the technology that's coming in, because if we look back in history, that's what's always happened when we've gone through a big change of industrial revolution, for example.  New jobs are created, which I guess makes that link between strategy and people and org design and workforce planning even more important than it's probably been in our lifetimes?

Oliver Shaw: That's precisely my point, David, coupled with lack of resources or lack of fresh people.  So, if you went back to 1970, well there were lots of young people, you could just hire more.  You won't be able to do that going forwards.  So, you have less people coming into the workforce, very different working environment potentially, higher skillsets are likely, and we know that education isn't always providing us with the skills out of university or school that we need. 

So, we're going to have to take responsibility for that for ourselves, which means lead times to get people in the right place becomes more like an apprenticeship than it becomes hire them and stick them into a fee-earning roll in four weeks.

David Green: It's going to be fascinating how it plays out, and as you said, for our children I think it's going to be a very different world of work than it is for us today.  So, yeah, it's going to be interesting how that plays out.  So, Oliver, as we come to the end of our discussion, obviously you've talked a little bit about some of the big challenges, or the factors that are going to impact organisational design and workforce planning.  What other developments do you see on the horizon for organisational design and workforce planning; and what should companies be doing to stay ahead of the curve?

Oliver Shaw: Yeah, so I talked a little bit about organisational effectiveness.  So, now you've got a design, how do you track and monitor that?  As business leaders, we all know that as soon as we put the plan to bed, somebody's freelancing around that plan somewhere and not necessarily following the guidelines or the rules, right.  So, that ability to say, "We designed it, is it working; are we doing it; what changes are we seeing?"  So, there's this piece that says tracking and monitoring becomes really quite important, particularly alongside a workforce plan, "This is the changes that are happening, how does the plan need to change to be able to get us there?"  This becomes really quite key. 

I think the overlay of the ability to use predictive analytics, and indeed in my last business, some very clever modelling in AI to start saying, "What are the relationships in here that you haven't necessarily seen?  How can you do things differently; how can we suggest different ways for you to achieve your outcomes, as opposed to you having to think about how you would do that?" 

So, if I were in the role of either business leader in one of these organisations, or I was the CHRO or an OD leader, what I'd be doing is making sure that I had my baselines in place, that I had a discipline and was building my own centre of excellence, so that I could control the process myself, rather than being at the behest of other people, and so that I could start proactively asking questions about how we should do things and what evolution we should have in our teams.  And a tool like Orgvue will continue to evolve alongside that journey.

One of the beautiful things about data tech, which is where Orgvue sits, is that when we work with clients on a problem, we can then take that solution and build it into our software so that it becomes available to other people.  So, that becomes a really good way of evolving the solution.  So, the more projects we're on, the more we learn about what people are going through individually, and how they're facing up to these challenges.

David Green: Fascinating stuff.  It's definitely an exciting time as we move forward, I think.  Finally, this is a question we're asking everyone on this series, and you've given lots of guidance I think around this already, but what do you think HR leaders need to be thinking about most in the next 12 to 24 months; and when you're thinking about that, what do you see as your biggest concern, and maybe the biggest opportunity for HR leaders?

Oliver Shaw: So, look, the pace of changes that we've seen is the pace of change.  So, we're probably not going back to a world where you could understand what was going to happen next year, let alone probably next week, in some cases.  So, we need to equip ourselves with the ability to respond quickly to those situations, whether they're driven through the macro changes that we talked about, specific business issues, or black swan events, that's your reality. 

So, moving along the line, where you have control of a plan, where you are able to suggest and proactively respond to those situations to your executive committee, your colleagues, your CEO, for me becomes critical.  And fundamentally, I'd turn round and say, "Embrace the digitisation of HR".  That means you might need to think differently about the skills that you have in your team, you need more analytical resource, you need more systems thinking resource, you need more, if you like, traditional operation skills around process planning and so on.  And that doesn't mean your traditional HR business partner role ceases to exist.  That becomes even more important, but you need some other people in the mix to make that work.

So I'd say, embrace that change and make sure you've got the right team to execute that.

David Green: Yeah, be at the front of it, rather than being asked to change.

Oliver Shaw: That's right.

David Green: Yeah.  Thank you for being a guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast.  Can you let listeners know how they can stay in touch with you, follow you on social media, and find out more about Orgvue?

Oliver Shaw: Of course.  So, you'll find me on LinkedIn, that's the easiest way to keep track of what I'm doing.  Orgvue's on Twitter, and clearly you can find out more at our website, which is orgvue.com.

David Green: Perfect.  Well, thanks very much, Oliver, and hopefully we'll see each other at a conference or an event in the coming months as well.

Oliver Shaw: I'll look forward to it, it's been great being on.  Thank you for having me.