With 15-20% of the populations being neurodiverse, why are some of our HR practices still failing to accommodate and leverage this incredible talent pool?  

In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, host, David Green is joined by Maureen Dunne, author of the groundbreaking book "The Neurodiversity Edge: The Essential Guide to Embracing Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, and Other Neurological Differences for Any Organization”.  

Maureen provides invaluable insights and practical guidance for HR leaders aiming to cultivate a neurodiverse culture. From understanding the essence of neurodiversity to implementing inclusive practices, this conversation is packed with actionable strategies to transform your workplace. 

Join them as they uncover: 

• The true meaning of neurodiversity and its critical importance in today’s workforce. 

• Why prioritising a neurodivergent culture is essential amidst the acceleration of digital transformation. 

• The main challenges faced by neurodiverse employees and effective ways to address them. 

• How to avoid common recruitment mistakes and adopt inclusive hiring practices. 

• An introduction to Maureen’s 3 C’s framework for fostering an inclusive workplace. 

• Strategies to prevent toxicity in organisational culture and promote neuroinclusion. 

• The opportunities and challenges of embedding inclusive practices in hybrid work environments. 

• The role of people analytics in supporting and nurturing a neurodiverse culture. 

If you're an HR leader committed to fostering a more inclusive and neurodiverse workplace, this episode is for you.  

Support from this podcast comes from HiBob, who brings us Bob, the most usable enterprise HCM according to Nucleus Research. Bob, is rated the most useable HCM solution in Nucleus Research's 2024 Enterprise HCM Value Matrix.  

Bob delivers tangible results for organisations through ease of use and fast setup, like for this US-based CRM vendor that achieved a 228% ROI. Need proof? Read how Bob increased productivity and reduced software costs by downloading the Nucleus ROI study here.  

Links to Resources: 

• The Neurodiversity Edge: The Essential Guide to Embracing Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, and Other Neurological Differences for Any Organization 

• John Winsor on LinkedIn: Maureen Dunne 

• HiBob Platform: HiBob 

• MyHRFuture Academy: MyHRFuture 

[0:00:00] David Green: There has been increasing focus on integrating environmental, social and governance, aka ESG, principles into HR strategies.  A considerable part of this focus on societal benefit is the realm of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging.  In today's episode, we're exploring a critical aspect of DEIB, neurodiversity.  Despite our best efforts to create a neurodiverse culture, many challenges remain in making our workplaces genuinely inclusive.  So, how can organisations create a truly inclusive work culture for neurodiverse employees, especially when we consider that 15% to 20% of the global population is neurodiverse?  To answer this question, I am joined by Maureen Dunne.  Maureen is an expert in workplace neurodiversity and the author of a compelling book, The Neurodiversity Edge, which is a practical guide for HR leaders aiming to create a neurodiverse- friendly culture within their organisations.   

In this episode, Maureen will explain the core concepts of neurodiversity, and why it's crucial to prioritise a neurodivergent divergent culture, especially with the rapid digital transformation of work.  She'll share insights on the main challenges that neurodiverse employees face, and together we will unravel her practical advice on how HR leaders can build a more inclusive culture through two of her frameworks, the three C's and the Pyramid of Neuro Inclusion.  So, if you're ready to learn how to create a truly inclusive workplace for neurodiverse employees, let's start with an introduction to Maureen's life, work and purpose. 

Maureen, welcome to the show.  Before we start, please can you share a little bit about your background and purpose, as well as the journey that got you to where you are today? 

[0:02:03] Maureen Dunne: Sure, yeah, I'm really excited to be here.  Thank you so much for inviting me.  My background, I've been working in the neurodiversity space for over two decades.  I've had a lot of different roles.  In terms of expertise, I studied at Oxford, I did my doctorate at the University of Oxford when I was on a Rhodes scholarship, also did a master's at LSE.  In addition to my research and organisational culture and business management experience, I also have lived experience.  I have kids that are neurodivergent, so this is something that's been a huge passion of mine for many, many years. 

[0:02:44] David Green: That's really good.  It's a work passion as well as an actual life passion as well.  As I mentioned in the intro, you recently published a book, called The Neurodiversity Edge, which has received a lot of plaudits.  It's a practical guide really for HR leaders looking to build a neurodiversity culture.  So, for the benefit of our listeners, could you provide your, definition of neurodiversity?   

[0:03:09] Maureen Dunne: Sure, yeah.  And just for the listeners, I guess it's important to know that it's an evolving concept.  There's a history of the neurodiversity movement and the concept and, it started out in the mid-1990s, where a lot of mostly autistic people were finding each other on the internet, and then a sociologist, named Judy Singer, had coined the term.  But it's an evolving concept, and I think most people would agree that it's a strength-based perspective and an umbrella term to describe all the different and unique ways that people's brains work.  And then neurodivergent is another term that we use in the community, which means then having a brain that works differently from say the average or normal.   

[0:04:02] David Green: Why is it increasingly important to prioritise a neurodivergent culture?   

[0:04:08] Maureen Dunne: Yeah that's a great question and I, I think, have thought a lot about this topic in particular, given my training, my background as a cognitive scientist.  And so, I've thought a lot about not just neurodiversity and my expertise in terms of neurodiversity, but also where we're going in terms of the future of work, where organisations are increasingly going to have to be more adaptive, where there's accelerating technological, social, and economic change, and where we're approaching a future that's very different than we've seen in the past, especially where cognitive work is concerned, right?  There's going to be a lot more cognitive work that's going to be taken over by automation.  And so to me though, neurodiversity is absolutely part of this conversation, and I think that so many leaders have been focused, rightfully so in many respects, on the technology component of this like, okay, we need to understand better AI, we need to understand better these emerging technologies, how it could help our company and our organisation be competitive.   

But I think where there's been less of a focus, and I think there needs to be more of a focus, is on the human resources side of this equation.  When a lot of cognitive work are being taken over by AI, that changes the game, right, that changes the human resources landscape.  And I believe, I mean neurodivergent people should always be valued, regardless of anything else.  But we are entering this time, I think, in history where there's more of a necessity of understanding neurodiversity and cognitive diversity and the kinds of skillsets that neurodivergent people bring to the equation in the table.  And I advocate it well, there's a concept called Complementary Cognition, and I advocate for, we don't have this ideal for not always the same right, we just need to develop these cultures where neurodivergent people and neurotypical people and the increasing importance of machine intelligence, that we all have a complementary role to play.  And I think that it does elevate the importance though in the future work of people who think differently, and trying to embrace all kinds of minds. 

[0:06:51] David Green: And actually, in the book here for those who watch their podcasts, and believe it, we do have some that watch their podcasts, and in the sleeve notes, I mean I've seen this elsewhere as well, that actually we're talking quite a lot of people here, aren't we?  People with the cognitive differences, it's 15% to 20% of the global population, isn't it?  So it really is (a) it's the right thing to do, but (b) it also makes a hell of a lot of sense for organisations to be more inclusive around neurodivergent workers. 

[0:07:23] Maureen Dunne: For sure, and yet a lot of people I've found don't quite understand the scale, right, that 15% to 20% of the global population is one in five people on the planet.  And then there's been some interesting research that I've seen more recently.  One of them was by a survey by ZenBusiness that showed that in terms of some of the younger populations, like Zen Z, Generation Z, that they identify more strongly with the neurodivergent umbrella, I think it was a little bit over 50%, that said they were either somewhat neurodivergent or definitely neurodivergent.  And then there was another study by Tallo that showed that 80% of Gen Z in general felt that it was really important that they worked for an employer that valued and supported neurodivergent workers.   

So, I think this is increasingly something that should be of importance, right, to HR managers, to CEOs, to anyone who's in business really who is concerned about the future of their business and staying competitive. 

[0:08:39] David Green: What are some of the main challenges that that neurodiverse employees face in the workplace?   

[0:08:46] Maureen Dunne: Yeah, I mean I think in general, there's just this huge disproportionality between the potential to contribute and the actual economic opportunity pathways that currently exist.  And so, the unemployment or underemployment rate is still unacceptably high, and across all neurodivergent cognitive typologies.  I mean, the research shows it's somewhere between 30% and 40%, right, when you look at all the types of neurodivergent cognitive typologies.  And then autistic people in particular have, it would appear, the highest unemployment or underemployment rates.  There's different statistics out there, but some of them are as high as 85% unemployment or underemployment, and that's for college graduates, that's including college graduates.  And it's not because these job seekers don't have skills that would massively benefit their employers or be able to contribute.  I mean, there's just so many layers of barriers, right, to successfully include all kinds of minds.   

That's one of the things I talk a lot about in my book, and specific strategies that HR managers and leaders can become more familiar with, that they might not be as aware of, that might be preventing genuine inclusivity.  And some of them have to do with just becoming more aware of some of the cognitive biases and mental shortcuts that all of us take.  Also, just the standardisation of how we do interviews, right, and job postings.  There's all sorts of things that have been standardised in the past that could be barriers to finding the best talent, right, for the roles that are important in your organisation.  You, of course, want to hire the best people and there's barriers to that, I think. 

[0:10:55] David Green: What are the different types of or the main different types of neurodivergent people?   

[0:12:30] Maureen Dunne: Yeah, that's a good question, because I think there's still a lot of people that aren't familiar with the term, neurodiversity, and all the nuances and what it implies.  And so, there's the neurodiversity umbrella, right, and it's again an evolving term, but it includes a pretty broad spectrum of people whose brains work differently, right, from what we would consider neurotypical or normal.  I would say the world "normal", but just neuro-normative, I guess is the right term.  But that includes autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Tourette's syndrome.  There's so many, nonverbal learning disorder, there's so many different typologies, but I think that in the broadest sense, realising that probably already you have a good 15% to 20% of your workforce that fall under the neurodiversity umbrella, and some of those people may not be getting the support they need to be as productive and as they could be.   

So, it's not just about, "Hey, how do we create cultures that will where we can recruit more neurodivergent people?" but it's also about realising that most organisations and companies already have neurodivergent people working for them that could become even more productive and feel more a sense of belonging in their organisation, if there's efforts put into place that acknowledge them and acknowledge an appreciation for all kinds of minds.  But a neurodiversity umbrella is really broad.  And so, some of the challenges are really learning the nuances of different, not just different types of neurodivergences, but the complexities where there's a lot of neurodivergent people that don't fall under one diagnosis or box as well, there's increasingly, especially a lot of women, who are both ADHD and autistic.  And so in the community, we call that AuDHD.  And that's in a way, it manifests differently than if you were just, say, ADHD or autistic.  And so there's just a number of nuances, too.   

But I think the most important thing is to not be afraid of the unknown.  And you know, if there's a lack of expertise in your organisations, it's so important to just be proactive, find the resources you need, and do what you can to be an ally in your organisation, whatever role you have, to make sure that you're building a culture where the broadest range of neurodiversity and cognitive diversity can feel a sense of belonging and can thrive.  And that's ultimately going to translate into better returns for your organisation and company, it's ultimately going to be in the best interest of your company as well. 

[0:16:03] David Green: And I guess, as you've alluded to as well, this is a field that's evolving.  So, we're learning more about different types of neurodiversity all the time.  And I guess one thing that HR needs, HR leaders need to do, is stay on top of that, understand where the science is evolving to.  And I guess one of the other challenges is, a lot of people either choose not to disclose any neurodivergence, because maybe they feel it's going to have an impact on their ability to get promoted perhaps at work, and I guess sometimes it's undiagnosed as well.  So, there's all sorts of different complexities, isn't there, to look at both for the individuals themselves, but also the organisations that they're working in? 

[0:16:47] Maureen Dunne: Correct, yeah, and you bring up some really important points.  In the UK in particular, there was a study not that long ago, in 2020, from the Institute of Leadership and Management, that showed that over 50% of employers openly admitted they would not hire a neurodivergent job seeker.  Now, I believe that just from a lot of the interviews and work I've done, research I've done, is there's a lot of well-intentioned people, they just get nervous about their lack of expertise in doing this correctly, so I think that's part of it.  But I think we need to get past that, right?  And regardless of neurodivergent typology or categories, that if we think about this a little bit differently, if we just think about it as, okay, we're all human beings, we all have strengths and weaknesses, and we can complement each other in terms of skillsets, and let's try to recruit for that diversity more generally, diverse experiential diversity, kind diversity, perceptual and analytical diversity, because that's going to be where there is, I think, a really strong competitive edge, especially in the future we have in front of us where innovation is going to be this huge, huge premium.  

That's a concept in my book I call neurodiversification, right, where in the past, in HR in particular, there's been, I think, too much of a focus on cultural fit.  And the way people have, I think, approached cultural fit, maybe even without being completely aware of it, is unconsciously sort of following the scripts with these standardised interview processes, and it's like, "Okay, does this person seem like someone I would want to go out for a drink with after work?  Or, is this someone who really seems a lot like me?"  And I think it's hard to resist that instinct, it's very ingrained.  But I think that for the benefit of our organisations and companies, we need to become more aware of the problems associated with that kind of instinct and go out of our way even to take a different path and be more flexible and say, "Okay, let's look more like, does this person actually value the core values of this organisation?"  You know, if you're an ed tech company, does this person care a lot about education?   

But outside of that, that person doesn't necessarily have to be similar to me as a hiring manager, or be someone I would want to go out with after work and have a drink with necessarily.  I mean, hey, if that person wants to, that's great.  But you're thinking about it more of, okay, there's a value add to making sure that we're including people who are thinking about some of the problems and challenges that all organisations and companies are going to face increasingly in the future, and thinking about those from different angles, right?  It's a huge risk, in my opinion, to organisations that are only hiring people that are thinking along similar lines, right, that aren't coming at problem-solving from different analytical, experiential, or perceptual backgrounds.  And that's why I talk a lot about the innovation in this space is going to have to come from the human resources side of things, where we're thinking differently about our human resources, we're being more flexible, we're finding ways to create these new opportunity pathways for people that have been historically maybe excluded or undervalued, and finding ways to tap in and better understand the kinds of skillsets and talents that don't lend itself or don't necessarily come across really clearly in our standardised verbal interview process, and finding alternative ways to assess that talent.  And that's going to be in the best interest of companies and organisations who really want to stay competitive.  Those that invest in this space, I believe anyway, are going to have a competitive edge going forward.   

[0:21:30] David Green: Yeah, let's explore that a little bit more now, let's bring it into HR and what we can do as HR leaders and professionals to build a more neurodiverse culture.  Let's start with recruitment because you've talked a little bit about that already.  What mistakes do you see organisations making in this area?  I mean, you've talked about a couple of them there.  And what do you advise that they should start doing to ensure more inclusive practices?   

[0:22:01] Maureen Dunne: Yeah, it's a good question, and after working in this space for many years, it's been interesting to see that, I mean there's obviously a lot more conversations happening right now, more public awareness about neurodiversity and the importance, even in the HR space, of recruiting neurodivergent workers.  But one thing I found is that there's a big difference between doing a more superficial approach of like, okay, let's only sort of modify some of our policies, let's look at the HR policies and make sure that we're protected in terms of including value and neurodiversity or anti-harassment policies, which is incredibly important, because there's just a lot of case studies out there that have shown some problems in that space.  But I think the organisations that really buy in, in a deeper way and realise like, okay, we need to look at our policies, for sure, but are the leaders all in; is the CEO all in; is the board all in?  Is there really an active effort to not just change policies, but to talk about neurodiversity in a different way than we have in the past, to bring up positive stories to actively try to combat the types of stereotypes that are so pervasive in our culture, where there's so many people, like their understanding of even something like autism is so limited, right?  They saw three or four movies they've met a couple people, and then they have just such a narrow definition and really don't understand the rich diversity in which autism or ADHD or dyslexia -- every person is a very, very unique individual, and I think reinforcing on a daily basis, whatever values an organisation espouses, if an organisation decides, "Hey, we're going to be all in on valuing neurodiversity", making sure that it's not just a superficial interview with the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal; and there's a value statement, which is incredibly important as a start, but making sure that there's consistency in the day-to-day operations and there's encouragement, where people are telling positive stories about their neurodivergent colleagues, like people are more aware of a strength-based perspective.   

Also just have a lot more empathy, right, empathy for the types of things people might be struggling with.  And there's hope then, right, that we could start bridging these empathy and communication gaps.  And that to me is incredibly important.  But the starting point there is just becoming aware how things have been done in the past maybe isn't the ideal situation for trying to unleash the potential of all your employees.  And I do believe that if there's a culture that builds on a solid foundation of psychological safety and people feel comfortable, not just disclosing, but asking for the support they need, and not feeling like if they need clarification or ask a question, feeling like that that's okay and there's a culture that embraces not only that, but also taking intellectual risks of bringing up ideas that haven't been brought up before.  That's the kind of culture that's going to really, really benefit and thrive in the future we have in front of us. 

[0:26:10] David Green: Maybe give example a couple of companies that are doing this really well, and what they're doing that makes them stand out. 

[0:27:11] Maureen Dunne: There's a lot of companies that have invested in this process in a big way and in different ways.  One that's taken a different approach that I've worked with directly is the Lego Foundation.  It's been unique in the sense that I helped them spearhead a new social impact investment fund that's not taking equity in social impact enterprises and nonprofits.  And the idea there is, let's invest in the future of neurodiversity and let's invest in global changemakers that are creating new solutions that could help complement what's happening in the schools, but the workplaces.  And so, one of the interesting things with that approach is that we've purposely created a situation where it's a co-creation model, right?  So, there's people with lived experience that are involved in every step of the way of helping these companies learn how to become more neuro inclusive.  And it's not just startups.  There's been some publicly traded companies, like Kahoot is an example that was part of the initial cohort, the first cohort, where they hadn't really invested that much in neurodiversity, even though they have millions and millions of users and a huge platform.  And so, that partnership allowed them to start to rethink their platform from a more neuro-inclusive standpoint, realising that there is a segment of the population that's maybe not participating in their platform.   

Then, I've worked with a number of companies that some of them were more like sort of Fortune 100 or middle-range companies too that were a little bit more nimble, right, or scale ups, they were a little bit more nimble where they could, from an early stage, invest in this longer-term type of process and sort of buy into, okay, we're not going to just do a couple of trainings, which is a good start, but we're going to really fully buy in to, we want to make sure that our culture is one where it's inclusive, there's not this just this special ed track for employees, we want to recruit the recruit the best talent, and we want to support the best talent.  And working towards these deeper goals of making sure there's a there's a psychological safety, right, that's a huge one.  And in my book, I talk a lot about that.  I have a Pyramid of Neuro Inclusion, where I purposely put psychological safety as the sort of foundational level and bedrock, because I think that while it's so important to institute or codify a lot of the more neurodiversity-friendly policies, sensory-friendly policies, making sure that there's all sorts of other supports that are available, that in the absence of psychological safety, that's going to harm all employees, not just neurodivergent employees, right.   

In Google, they did a project, Aristotle, where they studied all their most successful and innovative teams and found that it wasn't the teams that had the most resources, or even those that had the sort of more rock stars involved in their teams, it was psychological safety that made the biggest difference to innovation.  And so, I think that companies taking that seriously, it's not going to just benefit their strategy in terms of recruiting more neurodivergent talent and oncoming skills that will help their organisation, but it's also going to just change the culture where people are happier, healthier, more innovative, feel like they can take more risks that are ultimately going to translate into a competitive edge, and be more innovative, especially in the future we have in front of us where there's going to bring a premium to that kind of risk-taking and innovative thinking.   

[0:31:44] David Green: Yeah, really good.  So, Maureen, in The Neurodiversity Edge, you present a framework, the three Cs.  Can you provide a description of the framework for listeners and also how it assists organisations in becoming more inclusive? 

[0:32:00] Maureen Dunne: The three C's is, "Codification and conduct drives culture".  And so, I've worked with a lot of companies and also colleges, nonprofits, and all types of organisations, where there was an interest in developing a formal value statement to say, "We value all kinds of talent, all kinds of minds, and we want to be super-inclusive, neuro inclusive and make sure we're valuing diversity, not just in the way that diversity has been defined in the past, but also make sure that we're explicitly including neurodiversity", and that's a really great starting point.  But what I found is that the organisations that have really excelled and benefited the most are the ones that put in efforts where they're not just doing the value -- it's a good starting point, right, we do a value statement, we're making sure that we are setting the tone and getting leadership involved.  The leadership buy-in is so important, and in ideally the board as well where, "Yeah, we're a culture that explicitly and outwardly values all kinds of minds, we want to build a culture that that's supporting the potential of everyone".  And yet, I've worked with organisations that have taken those steps, and yet behind the scenes, the upper management failed to, or rather I guess a better way to say it is, turned a blind eye where there were some pretty toxic behaviours going on behind the scenes, with bullying and discrimination, or devaluing neurodivergent people.  Sometimes it's very subtle, just undermining the credibility of someone.   

I mean, sometimes there's a threat, right?  If anytime you're trying to do something differently, some people get nervous about that.  And then I think also, there's just well-intentioned people that just aren't educated, that don't have the right information, don't understand how rich, in terms of the diversity, the community actually brings to the table, and having strategies in place to create a culture where there's an alignment, an alignment between explicit values, and the habits that we're reinforcing every day that are consistent with those values. 

[0:34:56] David Green: I'm wondering, obviously, a lot of the companies or the HR professionals who are listening to this, they're working in organisations where teams are becoming more distributed, hybrid work is more common.  What are some of the things that they should be thinking about with regards to their neurodivergent employees?  Is there anything specific around hybrid or teams being more distributed that actually could potentially have an impact, both positive and negative? 

[0:35:26] Maureen Dunne: Sure, yeah, and I get into this topic pretty deeply in a chapter called Workplace Flexibility.  And I would say, just on the one hand, if you're serious about recruiting neurodivergent people, being flexible about geography and offering hybrid and remote options is absolutely important.  But also, just becoming aware of just where things are going, right?  There's increasingly going to be a lot of roles, more in general, that can lend themselves to remote work, and thinking about this differently I think is helpful to attract the best talent, right, rather than neurodivergent or neurotypical, or it's increasingly become a topic that's on people's minds, especially since the pandemic.  And I talk about this a lot in the book in the sense of, I think that the bigger takeaway message that I'd want to get across is that being more flexible in how people do work doesn't mean that there's not high expectations for results and how that work is being done.  And so, I think it's most important to focus more on the objectives and the results that you want to see in your business, and then be more flexible in how you allow people to achieve those results.  And that's, I think, across the board, just especially where things are going as well, going to be a better model for successful organisations.   

Now, of course, not every position is suitable for remote work.  But I think it's more of a mind shift, right?  It's a mind shift of trying to then just figure out, well, which roles could this work?  Obviously, there's increasingly a lot of roles where people can be affected, right?  If there's a hybrid, or remote option, and that's offered, and not every neurodivergent people thrive in remote work as well; some people do need the structure of the everyday office.  But many do need the flexibility of hybrid or remote work.  And I think that, yeah, again the takeaway message is, the more a manager especially could have a little bit more authority over making some of these decisions, that is more seen as, how is my team going to be the most productive, whether they're neurodivergent or neurotypical, like being more flexible of how people achieve results, but being strict about, "Okay, here's the results we need to see be achieved", and I think being focused on that rather than, "Okay, everybody has to be in the office five days a week".  I think it should be about results.   

[0:39:10] David Green: Agreed, which probably lends itself quite nicely to the next question about analytics, and then we'll move to the question of the series afterwards.  So, Maureen, based on your experience of advising companies on creating more neurodiverse cultures, how have you seen the role of people analytics being utilised to foster that culture that supports neurodiversity? 

[0:39:33] Maureen Dunne: I think that there is increasingly awareness, not just of the importance of including more neurodivergent people in all kinds of minds, but also that this should become a broader part of our person-centred strategy, our looking at the data and the people analytics type of strategy.  I would say, at least from my perspective, I would encourage people that are in these roles, if it's Chief People Officer or HR officer, to also do trainings, not just for managers, but for all staff, I think.  Because I think that when we're looking at a shift in how we think about these things, it ultimately ends up being about what kind of culture we want our organisations to become, right, and that's an intentional process, it's important that it's not just one segment of the organisation that learns about these things.  But if possible, it's always ideal if there's knowledge that spreads throughout the organisation, and I like to say from the mailroom to the boardroom, right, because even at the board level, right, sometimes there's not a lot of awareness and understanding.   

That goes into just questioning ourselves in some of the decisions that we make with our standardised ways of doing things, right?  So, there's one thing called the over-confidence effect, where I think a lot of times, there's been a model that's worked over many, many years and people kind of default back to, "Oh, well this is what's worked over the last 20 years", but not quite having an appreciation that we're in this really unique time in history where things are about to accelerate and change really fast, and the world 10 years from now will look nothing, in my opinion, from the world the last 15, 20 years.  And so, different solutions and different approaches and more flexibility is really necessary to be competitive and to stay on top of things and sort of being open, right, to these conversations and being open to, "Okay, whatever our data was over the last years is not necessarily relevant", trying to better understand where the world is headed and how we may need to adapt and how we may need to be more flexible and do things differently, if not for any other reason, for the success of our company and our organisation.  Because if we don't do that and if we're not one of the first people that are thinking more innovatively in this respect, our competitors will be. 

[0:42:51] David Green: What are the key elements that you believe are essential to building a strong company culture? 

[0:42:57] Maureen Dunne: If companies take seriously going on this journey of re-evaluating how they've done things in the past with traditional interviews, if they're open to doing more non-traditional interviews; if they're open to taking a hard look at their culture, doing an organisational audit, for instance, with regards to neurodiversity.  There's lots of steps organisations can take that I believe will translate not only to better awareness and information that could be helpful to them, but also provide a roadmap that will help them futureproof their organisations, understand their human resources, strategy and portfolio.  So, it's not just about incorporating diversity, where that's of course absolutely part of the strategy and the equation and super-important, but it goes beyond that.  It's like, okay, we're in this unprecedented time in history, and I think that being open-minded and being open to bring in expertise to say, "Hey, okay, we don't understand neurodiversity very well, so we're not going to do anything about it because we don't have experts", I think that's a dangerous direction to go in.  Being open-minded to say, "Well, let's try to learn, let's understand this better", this is ultimately going to improve our organisation.   

Then, just taking a hard look at culture, right, and being willing as a leader to have the courage to have a significant role in shaping that culture.  And that's where I really advocate for the CEOs and the board members at the top level, leadership having full buy-in, because that sets the tone for the culture of the organisation.  If people see the CEO saying, "Wow, look at this amazing work our autistic employee's doing" and focusing on the strengths, other people notice that, right.  And then, I've seen in the past, then other neurodivergent people that no one knew were neurodivergent feel more comfortable disclosing, and then there's just a different level of conversation happening and it just becomes more normalised, right?  And then, everybody is in a position where they feel more comfortable asking for what they need, or doing things in a way that's actually going to make them more productive, which translates again into even the bottom line is in the best interest of organisations where people feel like they're in a culture where they can be themselves, wanting to be there, investing themselves fully into their jobs.  And what more can an employer ask or want from their employees? 

[0:45:57] David Green: Well, that's the perfect way, I think, to end our conversation, Maureen.  Thank you so much.  It's such an important topic and one that's evolving pretty quickly as well, and I think clearly it's a topic that you're an expert on and I think a lot of our listeners will really have learned a lot over the last 45-50 minutes, so thank you very, very much.  How can people stay in touch with you, find out more about your work, find out more about The Neurodiversity Edge?   

[0:46:26] Maureen Dunne: Yeah, so I'm active on LinkedIn, you can follow me also on Instagram, Dr Maureen Dunne, you could check out my website, it's just www.neurodiversityedge.org.  But yeah, definitely I'd love if there's any questions, for people to reach out or sign up for our newsletter, that would be great, that would be amazing. 

[0:46:51] David Green: Fantastic, so we'll put that all in the show notes, but neurodiversity.org seems like the best place to find out more.  Maureen, thank you very much for being guest on the show.  I see you've spoken at UNLEASH in the past, so I may bump into you a future UNLEASH perhaps.  I don't know if you're going to Paris later this year, but I will be there.   

[0:47:13] Maureen Dunne: I hope so, yeah. 

[0:47:14] David Green: I look forward to meeting you in person.   

[0:47:16] Maureen Dunne: Okay, that'd be awesome.  Thank you so much for inviting me.  I really enjoyed our conversation.