Episode 49: What is the Impact of Virtual and Hybrid Working on Innovation? (Interview with Michael Arena)
There should be little doubt that human capital is a firm's greatest asset, however, this isn't enough. Organisations must also ensure that individuals are relationally positioned for success. In other words, bringing in the best people is only part of the solution. Firms must also bring out the best in people and that requires us to more intentionally leverage social capital. Those are not my words, although I wholeheartedly agree with their sentiment, but of Michael Arena, my guest for this week's episode of The Digital HR Leaders podcast.
Michael is the author of the brilliant book, Adaptive Space, How General Motors and Other Companies are Positively Disrupting Themselves and Transforming Into Agile Organisations. He is also a faculty member in Penn's Masters in Organisational Dynamics and he is currently the VP for Talent and Development at Amazon Web Services. He is also one of the world's foremost experts on Organisational Network Analysis.
You can listen to this week’s episode below or by visiting the podcast website here.
In our conversation, Michael and I discuss:
Why social capital is the next frontier for HR and how to measure it through the use of active and passive ONA
Why the pandemic will likely fast forward the future of work by five or ten years
The critical role that social capital plays in generating, incubating and scaling innovation
The potential implications to bridge connections of a shift to virtual and hybrid work environments
Some typical use cases and specific examples of how ONA can be used in relation to understanding collaboration, M&A, research and development, culture and employee wellness
How to ensure ONA initiatives deliver value for the business and the workforce and properly address any concerns on ethics, privacy, and trust
What HR can do to prepare their organisations for an increase in remote and hybrid working
This episode is a must listen for anyone interested or involved in Innovation, Culture, People Analytics, Employee Experience and Social Capital. So that is Business Leaders, CHROs and anyone in a Talent Development, People Analytics, D&I or HR Business Partner role.
Support for this podcast is brought to you by Panalyt. To learn more, visit https://www.panalyt.com.
Interview Transcript
David Green: Today I am delighted to welcome Michael Arena, Author of Adaptive Space and VP of Talent and Development at Amazon Web Services, to The Digital HR Leaders podcast.
Michael, it is fantastic to have you on the show. Can you provide listeners with a brief introduction to your background and your role at Penn University and Amazon Web Services?
Michael Arena: Yeah, absolutely. So thrilled to be here, David, looking forward to the conversation. A little bit about my background. I call myself a pracademic, because I sort of bridge this academic world with the practice world. I reside at AWS right now and doing some really interesting work around networks. I have spent some time up in the MIT Media Lab, which is why I really first delved into this topic we are going to discuss called network analysis. and then, I also teach at Penn on the same sort of focus areas. So again, back and forth between practice and academia and, it is this core, theory of my life, which is, good theory and research has to be applied.
David Green: And certainly I think, without embarrassing you, I think you are definitely the practitioner that I know who talks most around, what many people refer to as, network analysis. Others refer to it as social capital, but it is all about understanding the value of an organisation's social capital and I think that is really important. And on that front, a lot of people listening to the show will have an HR background, you have written that social capital is the next frontier for HR, can you explain what is social capital and why is it increasing in importance?
Michael Arena: Yeah, I say that not to minimise the value and need to think about human capital, but, by the very nature of HR, we have been focused on human capital for years. And we will continue to do so for the next decade plus, but it is social capital that I think is a new space for human resource professionals.
And if you think about it this way, there is a lot of stored up, what I call latent potential, inside organisations that has more to do with how people are connected to one another than it does what they know. So in simple lay person's terms, I describe human capital as sort of a summarisation of what you and I know, our experiences, our competencies, our capabilities, social capital is basically how well positioned we are inside of our organisations to leverage that human capital.
We all know these people, right, the really smart people inside of organisations that have a lot to say, maybe the deep experts that have a lot to say about a topic or two, maybe all topics. They have to be the smartest person in the room and what they tend to do is describe to others why they are the smartest person in the room and then they get marginalised and pushed to the edge and all of a sudden their human capital quotient becomes diminished because they have got themselves marginalised. social capital is much more about how well you can get yourself positioned to leverage what you know, and or to leverage what other people around you know through your social capital position,
David Green: How do we measure social capital?
Michael Arena: I will not be able to give you a short answer on this question. First of all, you have got to double click into social capital and it is easy to talk about the connections we have. If you go into the science side of social capital, there are really two primary types of social capital and I am glad to dive deep into both of these later. One is bonding social capital, you can think of that as what level of trust have we built within a team or within a small group. And then there is bridging social capital and that is really how well positioned are we to reach out across teams or reach out across functions or departments, or maybe even beyond our own organisation.
So the way you measure those things are through this concept of Organisational network analysis, and David as you know very well, there are all kinds of ways to do that. You can do that through a simple survey approach, which is basically asking the question, David who are the 5 to 10 people that you are connected with on an ongoing basis? You can do that through what we would call passive channels. So that would be email, that could be sort of chat messages, meetings that you are in, but it is these passive channels where we can pull that signal out of the data streams.
And then probably my favourite but by far the hardest one to use, is the social signals that I learned up in the Media Lab, which are sensor badges, so wearables which you can look at, we could hang this device around our neck and as others are doing that, we can look at how well connected they are to one another.
So those are some of the ways to be able to measure it.
David Green: And obviously many of the people listening to this will have seen those Network Analysis diagrams and all those little bubbles of people and who connects people to who. I guess where you see those kind of tight bubbles together, that could be a team and as you said, the bridging connection, could be that person that connects that team to another team within the organisation. I know we are going to talk a bit later around why innovation is so important.
Michael Arena: I love how you just simulated the network in the airspace around us.
David Green: Zoom is good for many things and I think it is definitely good for that. So when I speak with Chief Human Resource Officers and particularly People Analytics Leaders, I think the potential benefits of Social Capital and including Network Analysis as a part of their work is actually getting better understood. But I think there are concerns on areas such as privacy and ethics and this can be a bit of a blocker. You have talked about the passive data sources that we can tap into, wearables, for example. What advice would you provide to your peers in trying to overcome these hurdles?
Michael Arena: Yeah, super serious conversation and I think being super concerned about ethics and privacy and protecting individuals is really critical.
I think you have got to be very thoughtful about all those things on the very front end. I treat them each differently based on which method I would use. If somebody was going to put a badge around their neck or put a wearable on and/or if somebody is going to participate in the survey, I just would be very, very disclosing and I consider those to be opt-in channels and just be very forthright. Like the times where I have used wearables, I literally have people sign a joint agreement, like this is what the data will be used for, and then people will opt in or opt out. So I think those tend to be easier opportunities to manage this privacy thing. You leave it at the individual level, it is an opt-in. There are a couple of ways you can handle it, on the contracting side, I always ask Leaders that I work with, do you need to know individual's names? in other words, is this anonymous or is it confidential? Will a small group of researchers know individuals names, or did you want to be transparent? And, I think contracting on the front end, both with the individual and/or the Leader matter immensely.
When we get to these passive channels David, which I think is the part that is most sensitive. I can't think of a time where I need names. One thing I will say is I am thrilled that the People Analytics base resides inside of HR because HR, better than any other function inside of organisations, treat personal, sensitive information every single day and they know how to protect individual employees, but even going to step farther than that. I don't know that with passive channels, you need to know individuals names. I can't think of a study I have done from a passive standpoint, where I have kept names intact because I am looking at the aggregate. I am looking at what are the patterns across the team or within a team.
So I think there are all kinds of ways to deal with this privacy issue. but, the main thing is just be super open, very forthright and the more you can have an opt-in model, the better off everyone will be.
David Green: And I guess with most projects that you are undertaking, clearly you are trying to find out some benefit for the organisation, but there is going to be benefit to the Employees as well. If you are trying to understand the networking behaviours of successful salespeople, actually all salespeople want to understand that so they can actually be more successful themselves. So that transparency is very important. And I guess the other point is, perhaps, I have seen especially when we get to the vendor community, it is an either or, active or passive. And actually you probably might want to use both.
Michael Arena: Yeah. I would say a couple of things in your comments.
One is always remember that the Network Social Capital is one dimension of an individual's performance and it is probably not even the predominant one. What a person knows, all the Human Capital quotiens that we mentioned before also need to be evaluated and you don't get that through a Social Capital, ONA lens.
Second piece of what you said is, we want to know patterns, there have been times where people have decided to opt in and wanted to see how they perform inside the network. Even in those cases, I tend to push their own individualised information to them but no one else's because you don't want this to be misinterpreted. It is one data set and, it is a very narrow, but deep data set which gets us to the second part of your conversation, which is passive and active.
Passive is super good, to study the dynamic affects of a network across time because a network is never static. It changes month to month and, I would say that active or survey-based, is super good at creating context. You don't get context inside of a passive channel. In a survey I am able to ask you, David, who do you go to for career advice? Or who do you go to to find new ideas?
I have got to presume those things in a passive channel, so the marriage of those two things together is a super rich dataset. if you can find a way to do that across the line,
David Green: It is such an important topic, I think it was good that we could spend some time on that particular area. So we are going to dive a little bit deeper now to the role of social capital in innovation.
Before we do, can you outline some of the typical areas where companies are using network analysis?
Michael Arena: Yeah. The use cases are just about anything you can think of, but I will go through like some of my favourite studies. I think where I got really introduced to ONA is through looking at acquisitions and how quickly can two groups come together. What can you do to encourage interactions on the front end of a merger or acquisition? Maybe one of my favourite studies ever was looking at a research and development team and trying to look at how this research and development team in particular could bridge out and work with its clients proactively so that they weren't building something in a vacuum.
And they weren't so cohesive that they, weren't considering the business in this case, what the customer or the business needed. I could go on and on, how do you evaluate culture? The most emergent body of work I am part of right now is a piece of work I am doing with Rob Cross around culture and thinking about how culture spreads inside of an organisation. We tend to think of culture as this top-down, leadership driven activity. But what we are finding in our research is it is much more about the local influencers. If you really want culture to spread or manifest across an organisation, almost a three to one ratio between individual influencers, local influencers and Leaders, culture is more caught than taught.
So I have seen it used for all these different things and, I could literally go on and on for hours about other use cases, and have only scratched the surface.
David Green: It is a very good point, actually, for those that are listening, who might want to find out more, you published Adaptive Space, I think it was two years ago now. There are a number of other examples of those types and obviously deeper examples in the book as well.
So you alluded to as you started the answer to the last question, about the crisis and the concern that we have around network erosion, particularly in virtual working.
So we are going to go and look a little bit deeper on that now. So, we are in the midst of the biggest remote working experiment in history. It is forced of course it is not something that we have chosen and there is a lot of noise about how productivity has increased with virtual working.
I know we both share concerns around the impact on areas such as well-being, culture and innovation. What are some of the things that you are seeing from the data?
Michael Arena: First of all, I think what we will learn from this experience, or grand experiment where we are all part of this experiment, I think what we will learn from this will fast forward the future of work five to maybe as many as ten years into the future. And we all know that we are not going back to the way things were, even when the world settles down and we get a vaccine for this virus. We have created new possibilities and the human beings inside of organisations are going to have a perspective of how they want to work. I think we have learned a lot as a result of that. Back to, the social capital aspects of this, where I am most concerned, David, and we just talked about, bridging and bonding, is what we are seeing in the early signals.
First of all, let's start here. I think all of us have been stunned that productivity has generally increased in these times. I think most Managers would have said if you would have thought that everyone was going to go virtual and for the next six to nine months, it will obviously be longer than that, we are going to be disconnected from one another or at least other than through Zoom and other social channels. I think most of us would have anticipated that productivity would have dropped. Well we haven't seen that and quite the contrary, we have actually seen in most cases, productivity has increased.
And, one of the reasons for that is what you need to be productive is more bond in social capital. So in the very, very early days, what we have seen, and a lot of this research has already been published, is your very closest contacts, have actually solidified and maybe even increased the number of interactions you have from a bond in Social Capital standpoint. The research says your five closest colleagues, your connections with them have increased by 15%. At the same point, we are seeing a rapid decay in bridging connections already and Ron Burke predicted this, many years ago, or studied this many years ago.
Even in physical settings what we know is that bridging social capital, those interactions you have with other people beyond your team or beyond your local cluster, are far more susceptible to decay. And Ron Burke’s work in a physical setting said, 9 out of 10 of those newly formed connections will erode within the first year.
We all know that, you go to a conference and you have the best intentions to stay connected, 9 out of 10 times you reach out to that person a time or two, but within a year that connection has severed.
That is what we are seeing in the virtual world. A 30% drop, pretty sudden, early drop in bridging social capital.
And you already know based on what I said about innovation, why that is a problem. It means that we will be able to move faster because we are going to have less disruptions for those local cohesive teams, but we are going to lose new ideas. So on the discovery side, we are not going to have nearly as fertile of new ideas.
And then ultimately we are going to lose the ability to scale those ideas across the broader organisation in order to get them implemented. So my real long term concern is around innovation and, I think we are seeing the early signals, time will tell, we are a very creative species us human beings. We might find ways to work around this and it is certainly not impossible to maintain bridge connections, virtually, but I think we are already seeing signals of that beginning to erode.
David Green: What are some of the things we can do to limit bridge erosion in a virtual hybrid working environment?
Michael Arena: So that is the scary news or the downside. The upside is, there have been many professions that we have learned from, even back in studying this in the physical environment, sales folks, investment bankers, people whose jobs are to maintain those distant connections, have proven to us that you can do it.
You just need to be far more intentional in nurturing those relationships and you need to build much more repetition. Now, one of my favourite experiments that was done over the last decade with connections and trust and social capital was experimenting with different channels. The experiment was done up at University of Michigan and David, what the study says is, it takes about six interactions for individuals in a physical environment to start to build the maximum level of trust. So if we work together, six meetings or six one-on-one interactions, maybe a couple coffees mixed into that, we tend to reach a level of trust that is at its height at that point in time.
Now place that into those video channels, it takes about 16 interactions. So, sort of, three times that of the number of face to face interactions. The good news is, it can be done. The bad news is, it requires many many more repetitions in the number of interactions.
So that just means that we need to be more intentional. and I think there are some things that HR professionals can do to nurture that. That is sort of the core of where we are, building first and then ultimately maintain these distant connections or bridge connections.
David Green: I know innovation isn't the only concern that you have got about this sort of shift to virtual working. What are some of the other things that you are seeing?
Michael Arena: Yeah and I think these will come a little longer term, although I think we are seeing some stuff on wellbeing already. Engagement, interestingly has gone up if you look at the engagement research.
But I think it is a little misleading because what we are beginning to see is as many as 20% of individuals are beginning to feel lonely in this environment. If you look at that on the network, what that means is they may engage in couple of team meetings throughout the day, but they are moving to the edge of their network, even inside their own team. And they are becoming more and more isolated and that is super problematic for us. Rob Cross's work says that those people on the fringe of a network are 46% more likely to leave and, quit. Of course there is a wellbeing aspect of that as well. At our core we are social beings and we want to be a part of a group.
So as you move to the edge, you become more lonely. I think wellbeing is affected and I, think from an organisational standpoint, not only do you need to pay attention to wellbeing, but this whole concept of, maybe losing some valuable people could be a problem. It happens on the opposite side as well David, the other piece I would say is the one place where we have seen some productivity dips is with new employees, who were virtually on boarded. So those employees that never saw individuals face to face, we have seen as much as a 15 to 20% drop in productivity, at least initially.
The research says that it takes somewhere like three years, even in a normal world for those folks to assimilate into a network and, I am just super concerned that that is going to be even more difficult in this virtual world that we live in.
David Green: A great thing that a lot of organisations are doing in this crisis is they are seeking feedback from employees more regularly through more surveys, more pulse surveys, targeted questions as well, based on what they have learned from previous surveys. And I guess that is where you can combine that kind of active engagement questions or wellbeing questions with some of the Network Analysis as well. Because then as people start to say they feel lonely, maybe you can start to track how they are actually moving to the periphery of a network. Or the network can maybe give you the early warning signal that actually you need to make some interventions to support those people.
Michael Arena: Yes and I think it is a super important point that you just made and it gets a little bit back to the context and ongoing dynamic of a network changing across time. You don't always have to just do surveys to do ONA, you could also do engagement surveys and connect that to the network and look at how is sentiment traveling on the network. How is energy travelling on the network.
You begin to get a hint or an early signal is a better way of thinking about it in regards to how to intervene, not so much at the individual level, but at the collective level. I have never been more long on where we are with People Analytics and the partnership with HR as a whole, because businesses need us more than ever. I think that being able to get much more specific about what we are studying and giving Leader's early signals about what is about to happen with things like wellbeing or innovation or bridge erosion or frankly, even productivity. I am not completely convinced that productivity won't suffer longer-term as well.
Although I may be a minority on that particular, argument right now, but the way you study that and the way you help with that as you catch early signals through all the People Analytics tools, not just Network Analysis and you build the case for Leaders to think about this stuff preemptively as opposed to reactively.
David Green: Yes and actually on that, long-term sort of impact on productivity. We are still really in the early days, I know it might not seem like it, we have been sitting mostly at home, some of us exclusively from home for seven/eight months, but actually relatively we are still in the early stages of this crisis that will continue probably well into next year. As that shift from physical to a virtual or predominantly virtual working environment, do you think there is a little bit of a risk of overconfidence bias on how well equipped we are to cope in a virtual environment?
Michael Arena: This has been one of the things I have been touting quite loudly, David, is this concept of being overly confident. None of us thought we could be as productive, I may be in the minority, but I think most Managers would have said we won't be as productive in these virtual settings. We have been and I am a bit concerned that we are falsely convinced that this will sustain itself.
I think there are some, based on what I have already talked about with wellbeing, burnout, by adding more hours, which is certainly contributing to the productivity improvement. Also this, onboarding of new people, we should not ignore this phenomenon of new employees dropping in productivity. What that means is, two studies, Mercer did a study not long ago that said that 94% of managers and employees, believe that they have been at least as productive but mostly more productive in these times. So I get really worried whenever 94% of people say anything, because I start to think overconfidence bias.
And then the second piece of that, you have got to drill down a little bit deeper and there was this really great study done a few months ago from BCG. It said that your connections matter to productivity and what basically, what they proved, and they looked across multiple countries, is that you are more productive if you are satisfied with your connections and they use connections broadly. So I don't know if they were thinking about bridging or bonding, it didn't get into that in the study. But basically what they said, David, was if you were satisfied with your connections, you are going to be more productive.
if you weren't you actually were not going to be more productive. Now, the good news is most people were satisfied, so we saw a lift. It was a two to three times difference productivity wise between those that were dissatisfied and those that were satisfied. Why does that matter?
Well, because you could anticipate that as we onboard more and more people, and they don't feel like they belong to an organisation because they have never showed up on site, they are going to become more and more dissatisfied with their connections, which says there is at least early signal that suggests productivity could slip.
I hope I am wrong and again, I have said already, we are very creative beings and we find ways around this. I am hopeful we will get more intentional about pulling those people into the network sooner and better and faster. But, there are at least some early signals there around what might happen with productivity.
Those are some of the studies that I am paying a lot of attention to right now.
David Green: Yes it is fascinating and I guess there will be more research coming out, almost on a weekly basis, I think over the coming months. I know you and Rob Cross and others are doing ongoing analysis and research at the moment. So this leads nicely onto the question that we are asking all the guests on the show in this series. So thinking broader now from a HR Leader perspective. What can we do as HR Leaders to help prepare our organisations for a future where, as you say, we might leap 5 to 10 years into the future of work, where there will be an increase in remote and hybrid working, what are some of the things that we could do?
Michael Arena: So I think that the two things I want to say loudest in regards to this is lean into your people analytics function now, don't be responsive, be proactive. Don't wait to study this stuff, this is emerging and none of us know how the future is going to emerge, which is super intriguing and exciting for some of us that like to spend time there, at least mentally, but don't wait.
One of the concerns I have is we tend to be more responsive as a function, HR, so lean into your People Analytics group today, go collect some of these signals, run some experiments, run some studies. Don't follow the masses. I get really concerned with the organisations that are saying “we got some early signal.” This is again, another sort of symptom of being overconfident, “we are just going to go virtual because there are all kinds of benefits, which is true. I get really concerned about that because no one has studied this in a longitudinal way. So start collecting signal with your people analytics folks first. On a more practical basis, I would say a few things, we can do. I will call it virtual etiquette, things we can do to make this channel more fruitful. I would say things like make meetings shorter. We as human beings get worn out, adult learning principles say you can absorb for about 20 minutes and then you need a break.
I would say if you have got hour long meetings, condense them to 50 minutes. If they were 30 minute meetings, condense them to 20 minutes, keep those last 10 minutes to be free flow. Because it is very easy to get, super agenda focused in this virtual setting, we have much less natural serendipity, so build in serendipity.
So short bursts would be the first thing I would say. Many more repetitions, which you have heard me say already, if you need to build bridge connections across, if you needed to do that once a month before, aim at twice or three times a month today as a Manager. Then the other thing is more unstructured time in our agendas, leave some blank time so that people can have the water cooler conversations. And people can have unscripted dialogue about things that haven't been anchored into the agenda in a formal way, because that is what we do at the end of every physical meeting, right? You know, three or four people stay behind, they have a conversation on their sort of navigation to the doorway or they connect up with someone else in a serendipitous way.
So artificially create serendipity. I just think there was like this whole set of things we can do to continue to encourage rich social interactions in a virtual way. But they require much more intentionality and much more repetition than what we would have otherwise had naturally.
David Green: You said, lean into your People Analytics teams and I completely agree, actually it is fascinating some of the work that People Analytics teams are doing in their organisations to try and reimagine what the future workplace could look like. Are you seeing much work where the teams are involved in understanding the types of work that maybe can be done in a virtual environment versus in a physical environment? That possibly talks to the innovation part a little bit?
Michael Arena: Yeah. So a lot of people are saying we are going to land in a hybrid post Covid, and certain individuals are going to choose that they want to work in the office and certain individuals are going to choose that they want to work virtually. I think that is only half the answer, David. If I go back to the innovation construct that we were talking about, I think we are going to get far more sophisticated about the future of work. This grand experiment is going to teach us so much and I do believe that, being virtual, if you think about a software developer, a coder, if they are sitting at their laptop and they have very few disruptions and what they are doing is coding every single day, which is a deep concentration task , being virtual is actually a very good thing, but that's to say that they are always coding and we all know that that's not true. There are times where they are discovering what they should code, what are the new features in a product? If you are an Engineer, engineering and building the frameworks or models takes deep concentration, but there are times where you need to be discovering new engineer methods, new things to engineer around or design around.
Then ultimately you need to connect whatever you code from a software standpoint or build from an engineering standpoint, you need to partner with Manufacturing and/or sales or all these other entities. So I go back to the very early part of our conversation, David, I think that we are going to be thinking about work modalities in a much more sophisticated way. Just using my nomenclature and you can substitute this with anything. There will be times where need to be in discovery mode and bridging connections matter and those are easier to do in physical settings, not exclusively, but I think we will pull people back into the office at times very intentionally to ensure that we are still discovering and we are still learning and discovering new ideas.
Then people can work in deep concentrated pockets and/or with their small team as they are iterating very well virtually and we will call that development or productivity. Those modes will be home, those modes will be virtual and/or office by choice. Then ultimately I think bridging connections matter again, as I said before, with how do you scale or defuse? And I think that is going to require people to go back into the office. So I think of it as an agile hybrid. And the agile being people will flow in and out of the office based on the modality of work at any given point in time. What I love is I think the people analytics space is going to be able to help build that signal, and help point people to where they could be and should be for optimal performance. I'm very long on the future, but I, just want to be very, very cautious not to jump towards a or B, I think it is too simple that way. I think we are going to have a much more sophisticated solution emerge and all I just said was a hypothesis. I am sure I am wrong about much of that, but you know, the cool part is we are studying it and collectively we will figure out new ways of working that I think will be better than before.
David Green: Well, all I can say, Michael is next time we have you on the podcast, we can actually look back on this time and see what else we learned that we didn't envisage, in these 45 minutes or so. Thanks so much for being a guest on the, podcast Michael. Can you let listeners know how they can stay in touch with you, follow you on social media and find out more about your work and obviously Adaptive Space.
Michael Arena: Thanks, David. I really appreciated this conversation. Clearly we can both get passionate and could probably go for another couple of hours on this.
Certainly, to answer your question directly, LinkedIn I am certainly on LinkedIn if you want to reach out, websites, so adaptivespace.net is one website that goes deeper into these types of connections, for sure. And then, it is less about a connection to me and more about the connection to the work.
Networkroles.com is a free self-assessment where, anyone can go out and really look at, their personal predisposition towards some of these work modalities, but more importantly bridging or bonding, social capital.
So, those are a couple of resources and a couple of connect points. And, again, super looking forward to the way this all emerges, in the whole People Analytics space, but I think networks have never been more important and it feels like we are really at a tipping point in the way we think about these things.
David Green: And what we will do, Michael, when we put the podcast up we will include some links to some of the articles that you have published this year as well because I think they dive deeper into some of the areas that we have talked about in the last 45 minutes.
It is always a pleasure speaking to you, Michael. Thank you very much for sharing your time and knowledge with our listeners.
Michael Arena: Thanks, David. It was fun.