Episode 129: Creating a Supportive Work Culture by Nurturing Mental Health & Wellbeing (an Interview with Jacqueline Brassey)
On this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, David is joined by Jacqueline Brassey, Chief Scientist and Director of Research for People and Organisation Performance at McKinsey and Co.
Bringing over 20 years of experience as a practitioner academic in Leadership, Organisational Development and Positive Neuroscience, Jacqueline is passionate about helping organisations thrive by promoting mental health, wellbeing, agility and resilience. Research that Jacqueline has recently led has shown that despite organisations focusing their efforts on improving employee wellbeing, employee burnout remains shockingly high.
This episode's conversation will cover various insights and actions HR Leaders can adopt and create a successful mental health and wellbeing strategy.
Topics of discussion include:
The impact toxic company cultures have on employee burnout
How to build resilience through adaptability and authentic confidence
Creating a workplace that attracts the future of work
Links to the resources:
https://www.managementboek.nl/boek/9789462156869/authentiek-zelfvertrouwen-jacqueline-brassey
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/mckinsey-on-books/deliberate-calm
Support from this podcast comes from Hibob. You can learn more by visiting:
www.hibob.com/dhl
David Green: The pandemic has intensified the focus of organisations on employee wellbeing. Indeed, across the globe, four in five HR leaders report that mental health and wellbeing is a top priority for their organisation. However, a recent study by the McKinsey Health Institute of more than 15,000 employees around the world found that one in four employees is experiencing symptoms of burnout.
But instead of me talking you through the study, why not learn more about it from one of the key people behind the research, Jacqueline Brassey, Co-leader of the McKinsey Health Institute and also the Chief Scientist and the Director of Research Science for the People and Organisational Performance Practice at the firm.
Jacqueline Brassey: Our research shows that what is needed is a systematic approach, proactive, and at three levels in the organisation, and there's a huge opportunity to actually build progress there. And what you see now is that we're going into a new horizon where organisations start to think this through in a more strategic way and build events out of wellbeing strategy in response to the research findings that we and others also have presented.
David Green: My conversation with Jacqui will take a close look at the impact toxic company cultures have on employee burnout. We discuss how to build resilience through adaptability and authentic confidence. We'll also talk about creating a culture that attracts, develops and retains talent, and Jacqui will also provide guidance on eight steps to foster a mental health and wellbeing strategy that actually works. So, put your headphones on and turn the volume up, as this is a conversation you don't want to miss.
Jacqui, it's great to have you on the show. Before we get into the conversation, could you provide listeners with a brief introduction to you, how you got to where you are today, and your roles at McKinsey?
Jacqueline Brassey: Absolutely, David, and I'm so excited to be here. It's fantastic to have this conversation with you, and I look forward to the dialogue that we're going to have. Yeah, what got me where I am today? It's been a long journey, actually, and I'm not going to say how many years back, but I started my career in customer development and marketing actually, but very quickly moved into HR and, primarily, the quantitative side of HR.
I spent a long part of my career with Unilever, and also moved to London and started to experiment.
After doing a pre-engagement, I started to experiment with people analytics and organisational diagnostics, and I started an academic career on the side as well. The common theme throughout my career has been evidence-based work and putting numbers to maybe the more softer topics, as we say. And the key focus has been, most of the time, on sustainable human development and performance, but bringing concepts from leadership, organisational business science and neuroscience together.
In the work that I now do at McKinsey Health Institute, but also at our People and Organisational Performance Practice, I'm bringing that all together as well in the day-to-day work that I do.
David Green: What we're going to talk about a lot today, and I know that it's something that you've studied extensively in your work, and certainly recently at the McKinsey Health Institute, is employee mental health and wellbeing. It's a topic that, as I've said, you've written is at the forefront of many organisations' priorities; but when I was reading the McKinsey Health Institute article that you published, I think just at the start of the summer, it was really fascinating to learn that while many organisations are investing and focusing on helping to improve employee wellbeing and resilience, there's still a very high rate of burnout reported by employees in these organisations.
For our listeners who've not yet read the article, and we will provide a link in the show notes, what is it that organisations are missing when it comes to employee mental health and wellbeing?
Jacqueline Brassey: It's a great question, and it's something that we found, indeed, in our research, there is still a big issue. One out of four report burnout symptoms, which is quite high, and we also noted the problem is still increasing. What we found also with great intent, many organisations have done a lot actually to help employees, and the investments have increased. And it was more actually at the start of the pandemic, as a response to the stress and the challenges that everybody was going through, and organisations have listened and did their best actually to respond. But the focus was more reactive and at the individual level.
Our research shows that what is needed is a systematic approach proactive, and at three levels in the organisation, and there's a huge opportunity to actually build progress there. And what you see now is that we're going into a new horizon where organisations start to think this through in a more strategic way and build events out of wellbeing strategy in response to the research findings that we and others also have presented the last year.
David Green: What were some of the highlights that came out in the data in what I know was an extensive research study that you did?
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah, it was a large study, and for those who don't know what the McKinsey Health Institute is, maybe a few words on that as well?
David Green: Yes, that would be helpful.
Jacqueline Brassey: We got launched in May. It's a non-fee-generating institute that was launched by McKinsey. It's related to McKinsey but not part of McKinsey, so a really different model. We have the aspiration to add years to life and life to years, and we have different pillars which we work, including brain health, but also healthy living and healthy ageing. And within brain health, we have employment health and wellbeing. And there, that's the work that I'm co-leading with colleagues; we really want to help organisations to become enablers for mental health and wellbeing rather than blockers. So, in that context and with that aspiration, we launched a global survey that was rolled out in 15 countries.
Now, a couple of key findings, David, we found, as I mentioned before, one out of four is reporting burnout symptoms, and that's quite serious because we thought it actually was quite high. This is not just people being stressed, but this is really burnout symptoms, as measured by a validated skill from Dr Schaufeli, that we work with. And then, we looked at the drives for positive health and wellbeing and the drives for negative health and wellbeing. And in a nutshell, what we found was there are multiple contributors to positive outcomes. So, we were able to predict 55% of the variants of, for example, employee engagement and job satisfaction. And we noticed that it's not one thing that drives it; it is inclusion, it is sustainable work, it is multiple factors. It's actually the systemic approach that we talked about.
On the other side also, we looked at what is driving the negative outcomes of employee health and wellbeing, and what we saw paramount, jumping out of this research, is that also again multiple factors: (1) toxic workplace behaviour; (2) lack of inclusivity; (3) sustainable work environments. And the rest also was adding, but these were really the big drivers. And toxic workplace behaviour, we thought, "If that's a big driver, does it really matter; are many people experiencing it?"
Also, there, we found that one out of four was basically reporting experiencing high levels of toxic workplace behaviour, and that was hugely surprising to us. The other thing that we found is if you do not solve that, nothing else really matters.
It's like if you have a basket of apples and you take care of the apples, but you have one rotten apple; no matter what you do with the rest of the apples, if you don't take out this particular rotten apple, it will still impact the health of the other apples.
The moment you take it out, though, every individual action that you take moves the needle on burnout symptoms and negative outcomes, and that is hopeful.
David Green: What skills do our leaders and employees need to combat burnout and help improve the overall wellbeing of the workforce?
Jacqueline Brassey: There was one important factor that we saw really can act as a buffering factor to deal with stressful work environments and to deal also with toxic work environments, and that was effective adaptability; basically resilience or emotional flexibility, or adaptability, or what you will call it. But in this case, we measured effective adaptability.
What that means is; basically people feel like they have multiple options to get out of a difficult situation. And what we saw was that people who have a high level of these skills are less vulnerable for stressful work environments, so their engagement and their energy levels were impacted, but did not reduce that much in toxic workplace environments; where people who did not have those skills really suffered much more.
Now, that is an indicator that, yes, the organisation needs to change, and you need to make this topic part of the fabric of your organisation.
However, you also need to help individuals actually to develop skills to deal with stress. No matter what you do to make a perfect context and a perfect environment, not everything always goes great, so you're still vulnerable as an individual if you do not have those skills. So, we saw that there is a buffering effect. But, David, I want to add that what we also saw is that these people are 60% more likely will leave your organisation, and their intent to leave was increasing if the environment is not a positive one. So, there is a likelihood that you actually lose great talent and great skills if you do not take care of the other side as well.
So, both are important, and it should not mean that, as an organisation, you think, "Let's just build those skills, and we're done with it" that's just not sufficient. But it was an interesting thing to see.
David Green: Yeah, very interesting. And on the adaptability, and resilience piece, Jacqui, what steps can listeners take, whether they're a manager or leader or not, and what steps can they take as individuals to help enhance their own adaptability skills?
Jacqueline Brassey: Well, there are training for it, and I will tell you more later; read our book that's coming out because we've written a book about it; but it starts really very much with starting to understand how stress impacts your brain and body, and what is going on for you when you feel stressed, what is happening there, and then knowing that you can learn actually to handle that and that you can deal with it, but that you can learn it as well.
I think the other thing is really make it a topic to talk about and bring it to the team setting as well. You can do that in a facilitated way, but you can also, if you feel comfortable as a leader, just talk about it with a team. So, it is really about understanding what is happening and how can you actually manage stressful environments in the right way, and look at it with a lot of compassion, to be honest.
David Green: What actions can HR leaders and professionals take at an organisational level to drive employee mental health and wellbeing?
Jacqueline Brassey: Well, thank you, that is a great question. We've actually defined eight actions based on the research that we've done, and I would encourage and invite everybody also to read the article. We will continue our research also into 2023, and we will continue to build the model that we have.
But the starting point is eight actions, and it starts for us at making mental health a strategic priority, bringing it into the boardroom and really discussing this topic, "What does this mean for our business strategy; what does it mean for our people strategy; and why is this an important topic for us?"; improve access to resources for people, so they know where to go when they need help, and that can be anything from signposting them to mental health support, to training and all the resources that you may have available; eliminate toxic workplace behaviours, make this also part of cultural measurements; and make it transparent, "Where are we today; and if we take action, how do we actually know we moved the needle?"
Also, inclusivity and belonging are extremely important, coming up both us a driver of positive and negative outcomes; eliminate stigma around mental health; creating a supportive environment for people to develop themselves and to learn, and enable a sustainable working model. So, there were eight actions. And under each action, you can put a lot of interventions, but basically, this is what we found in the first large global study that we did.
David Green: You mentioned, obviously, back earlier in your career, you were at Unilever. There you managed to quantify that for every $1 that they invested in wellbeing at Unilever; they were getting a return of $2.50 dollars as well. Now, that doesn't mean just do it because it has a financial return; do it because it's the right thing to do, and as you said, it will help you attract and retain great talent.
But I think this is a breakthrough moment sometimes with the board.
It's like, actually, not only is it the right thing to do, it's actually the right thing to do from a business perspective as well. I know other organisations have looked at it like that; I'm not sure they've quantified it in quite as simple terms as Unilever had.
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah, and not everybody has the means yet to actually quantify it as such, but I can tell you, there's much more coming, and the business case is real. There is research also emerging from the World Wellbeing Movement that we became a founding partner of. And I can say there is a business case for productivity, retention, attraction and absence. It is no longer really a question whether we should do it based on a business case or not; it goes much further.
There is a younger generation that becomes much more vocal about the importance of this topic for them, and they decide whether they want to work with an organisation based on what they think this organisation is investing, and really paying attention to the topic of mental health and wellbeing, and that's really huge. It already informs decisions whether, for example, they filter out organisations, whether they want to apply or not; also, whether they want to stay. And in the next five years, the World Health Organisation predicts that this generation that we're talking about, they will make up 30% of the working population.
So, we'd better start moving and moving fast if we really are serious about being great employers, but also keeping the right talent and attracting the right talent and the great talent for the future.
David Green: As we've touched on already, your McKinsey Health Institute research really highlighted toxic workplaces is one of the biggest predictors of employee burnout. And the toxic environments, whether that be in our work or our personal lives, can certainly hinder our self-confidence as individuals. With all that anxiety comes a lack of confidence. I presume this could eventually lead to burnout as well. Your book, Authentic Confidence, touches on this.
Tell us more. What is Authentic Confidence, and why is it so important in the workplace?
Jacqueline Brassey: What is Authentic Confidence? Well, this started with my own journey, David, a couple of years ago when I actually got into a confidence crisis. Until then, I had no idea what this was about. I had anxiety, low-grade anxiety, my whole life, but it became such that it got in the way of me reaching my potentially basically, it was hindering me, and that annoyed me but was also hugely painful. I have spoken about that in a TED Talk. That was the moment when I started to study the topic of anxiety, way before the pandemic hit the world and also way before we actually were talking about these topics so freely.
But that personal confidence crisis led me to study the topic and the neuroscience of anxiety and confidence and wellbeing, which brought me on a wonderful journey. And that actually has led me to understand that this is not a soft topic. It's biology, it's science, and that brought me onto this mission of translating these topics in a scientific way, and in a way such that it can be easier accepted also in the boardroom and in organisational settings because it's hugely important.
I also learned already, before the pandemic, that many people were struggling with this topic. One out of two in our exploratory study people indicated that they thought they could perform better at work if they were less worried about making mistakes, just as an example. People also indicated to worry a couple of hours a day, and that takes energy away.
It's normal, by the way, to feel stressed every now and then, it's absolutely fine, and stress is a good thing because it's also needed to learn new things. But also, if not managed well, it can lead to burnout, it can lead to lower productivity, and there's a lot that's related to it.
So, when I started to study this, I also was working on my own challenge with anxiety, and this book was very healing for me also to do. But what I learned was, listen, I want to bring science to this topic; I also want to bring a tactical toolkit because I read a lot, I was very much inspired by what I read, but then I never knew what to do, "What is this about? What are the tactical things that I can do?" and there a lot of tactical things that you can do; there are 32 tools in our book. But also, this was all brought together in the context of, I understood it was not only me; but also we thought, with all the more reports coming out also, a study by McKinsey, that by 2030 a large part of the jobs will no longer exist that are here today, and lots of jobs will transform, etc.
Now, little did we know that then there was a pandemic, then there was another disruption, and it continues going and we're actually getting into an acceleration of change. More importantly, we found in our research that people don't speak up, they keep under the radar, and they don't give feedback, and so you lose a lot of the talent.
You have people there in your business that are not participating such that you want, and so there is also a business case from that angle.
Authentic Confidence is about really clarifying for yourself what matters to you and continuing to move forward towards that. That sounds a bit abstract, but basically, David, to explain it in a bit of a practical way, what matters to me is to talk about these topics and create an awareness around mental health and wellbeing, but also a lack of confidence and challenges that people may face, because of whatever challenge they've had in the past or maybe neurodiversity they bring to work, and I want to talk about it, and I want to have impact in the world.
In order to do that, I love talking people like you, to come to this wonderful podcast, but also to be on stage. Sometimes I find it actually a bit scary as well because I don't want to make mistakes, I want to say the right things, and I don't always say the right things, and then I cannot correct that. However, it's important to me. So, I am very clear about the why, and I know I have the skills to manage with the stress that comes with this, doing this particular session, for example, and it also is fuel to do this. So, that gives courage. If you know what to do and how to handle stress along the way, that is Authentic Confidence.
It does not mean you should never feel a lack of confidence or anxiety; it's actually about becoming comfortable with discomfort and being okay also not always to have the answer, which I am much better with these days, but I have my moments, and there are many of us. So, it's an important skill to learn, given the context that we're in these days.
David Green: What key piece of advice can you give to listeners to help them become more authentically confident?
Jacqueline Brassey: Well, first of all, of course, knowing that you're not alone; but how you can start, it's really about, first of all, I would say read this book as well. This has been a journey, but all the proceeds go to Save The Children as well, but it has some tactical tools. And it's based on clinical psychology; it's based on acceptance and commitment to therapy, so we translated that to the business context, so it's also evidence-based.
It all starts with really, and I mentioned it before, define what really matters to you; what do you want to do; and what are your values, and then prioritise them as well. Because no matter what you do, the fact that people struggle with this sometimes is a positive thing in a way, and that also means that you go out of your comfort zone.
And when you learn, you also go out of your comfort zone; it's all so normal.
But if you do not clearly specify what is important to you in this current world, where the boundaries are a bit gone as well, there is no clear, defined path; there is a lot of possibility, there is a lot of movement; also 24 hours we always go on and we need to make difficult decisions. Difficult decisions are easier made when you have some guidance of what matters to you and what your values are, so that's the starting point.
But then, I would say it's also important to take care of yourself and to really build a personal operating model that helps you to recover, to take care along the way of yourself, to set yourself up for success. It's almost like, when we do the jobs that we do, we're athletes but in a corporate context. And if you struggle with anxiety and lack of confidence, this can be hugely debilitating, but there's a lot that you can do. Taking care of your brain health is critical. And also, if you say, where do you start with; apart from knowing what is important to you, if there's one other thing that you could do, it's to make sure you sleep enough, and you recover enough. Then there are 42 tools that we have in our book!
So, it is really a journey, and it is really a skillset, and there's no silver bullet that will help you forever get rid of insecurity; luckily not, it's actually good that we feel insecure. But if you take it seriously, you really can build skills to deal with it, and that is promising, that is self-empowering.
David Green: For those HR and people leaders listening, what piece of advice would you give to them to help enhance the authentic confidence of their managers and workforce?
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah, I love that question. I mean, as I said, as individuals in your organisation, you can do a lot to self-empower; but as HR leaders and leaders of teams, there's a huge amount that you can do as well, and that made me think of a quote that Amy Edmondson once said.
She literally said, "Psychological safety and courage are two sides of the same very valuable coin", and she's very right there, and there's a lot of research behind it as well. If you create psychological safety in your organisational settings and in your teams and in your organisational culture, that is a place where people can have also difficult conversations and sometimes conflict that can be constructed, as long as the environment is safe, but also where you speak up about challenges, etc.
It is important to continue to be very clear the role and the impact that you can have as leaders and HR leaders to create that environment. It's the little things that you do as leaders.
But also, from an HR perspective, how do you actually hire; I mean, the whole value chain, from onboarding to retention, has elements of that. Have an honest look at what values you bring in the organisation that creates psychological safety and that develops people's confidence.
If you put a value -- I have a learning and development background as well, as you know, David, and helping people learn and develop is the biggest driver also of confidence and wellbeing. It's important to grow and make progress. Then, as an HR leader, you have an important role to play there: what are the opportunities you create? What are the people that you actually put forward in the organisation; are they the role models; what are the people you hire? How do you onboard them; and how do you evaluate people, and how do you actually also reward them?
So, there's so many things that you can do, bringing these pieces of creating safety, having a learning and development angle, create an environment where people feel appreciated and included. And so it's not one single thing, it's a journey, but there is a huge amount of possibility that can be created by HR leaders and leaders in organisations.
David Green: We've touched on this a little bit, but we know that changing the way we approach mental health and wellbeing in the workplace is crucial for culture and the performance of the organisation. Could you also share some insight into your findings as to why it's so important, in particular for recruitment and retention?
Jacqueline Brassey: Well, as mentioned before, we see actually that people find it very important that organisations take care of mental health and wellbeing, and also it often drives the decisions whether people will look at an organisation to apply for a job, it's really shifting. This was an important topic already for the talent that we see now, but it becomes more important for talent of tomorrow, and especially if we ask the new generations and even the students how important they think mental health support from a future employer is.
You see, in a recent study that we also have published in Europe, that in some countries, it's 80% find this important, so it drives their decisions. In other countries, it's a little bit lower, but it doesn't go below 50%, or 60%, and so it's really top of mind for people. There's a unique opportunity to make this part of your value proposition, but of course, it shouldn't be lip service; it should be real. And if organisations do that well, they will get the talent, and they will be able to retain the talent as well.
We saw it also coming up in our other research around the great attrition, great attraction; it is an important element and important factor for people to actually choose for something else. I think that they realise there is more; people really want to do a great job, people want to also develop and learn, and it's not about people not wanting to do hard work. But the topics of, "Am I really appreciated? Is this organisation taking care of their people?" and, "Is there purpose?" is another topic that also drives health and wellbeing, but is also important for people to choose for a role.
Those topics matter, and you see that in all the shifts that are happening in society and that will become stronger. The shift will happen in the next couple of years, we will have a larger proportion of this younger generation working in our organisations, and so they will vote with their feet then. They will make the decision if we do not move the needle ourselves if we do not make the decisions and make the changes ourselves.
That's a choice organisations can make and should make.
David Green: Do you have any advice for those listening on how to build the right mental health and employee wellbeing strategy?
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah, absolutely; great question. The part of the eight actions that I mentioned, which was of course, based on this global study, generic study, I would say look at your strategy, take this topic to the boardroom. But also, it is important that you understand, "Where am I starting from; what is my baseline? What is important to my people?" Of course, one way to do it is to use a survey that we have developed, which is freely available for everyone. And so, reach out, I would say, and connect with us. But know your starting point, and then in the context of your business strategy, look at how can this help drive and deliver the strategy and the objectives that you have.
But also, when you know your starting point, when you know where to focus and to prioritise because this is a longer journey, there's more work coming out of the McKinsey Health Institute as well, where we actually recommend organisations to look at this from the systemic level, at three levels in the organisation, both proactive and reactive, what you have in place now. If you look at your results, where are the opportunities for immediate impacts, and how could your journey look like?
David Green: I think your study actually said, I think, something like 80% of organisations are already doing something, but much of it is at the individual level. So, it's really about thinking about how you can do it at a systemic level, looking at team and organisation as well.
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah.
David Green: Then the final question of today, Jacqui. Now interestingly, this final question, which we're asking everyone in this series, is perfect for this topic because we've talked about how we're moving into the hybrid era. What tips can you share with leaders on how to foster collaboration in a hybrid team?
Jacqueline Brassey: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I get the question about hybrid teams a lot, and I would say, and I'm sure you have gotten great tips already so you have a long list of contributions I'm sure, but I would say then, in line with the topics that we spoke about on adaptability and also authentic confidence, one word comes to mind: be intentional. It doesn't matter whether you actually work face-to-face or in hybrid settings; people want to be heard, and people want to be seen. And in the hectic life that we're in these days, it is often forgotten. We're running and running, we have a lot of to-dos, and we forget to actually see people and hear people, not because we're bad people ourselves, just because we're taken by the stress of the day and the fast-moving pace that we're in.
So, the only thing you can then do is be intentional and really think about, you can do that even in the morning, look at your agenda, "What's happening; how can I make sure that actually, I make that happen?" whether we have a face-to-face or a hybrid setting. The execution of it is different in a face-to-face setting and a hybrid setting, but all involves around being intentional and listening to people. Tactically, David, you can set up specific calls, you can ask questions, you can do check-ins with your teams, etc.
David Green: Can you let listeners know how they can find you on social media, find out more about your work, and also give them details for the upcoming book, Deliberate Calm, which I think is released in December, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but also Authentic Confidence that we talked about today as well?
Jacqueline Brassey: Yes. I hope we can share actually the links to that. You can find more about the McKinsey Health Institute online if you google it. You can sign up for our emails, join us, I would say. The book, Deliberate Calm, is being published through Harper Business, and Authentic Confidence; you can find an e-book version already globally at amazon.com.
But everything else is also posted on my LinkedIn; feel free to connect.
Thank you again, David, also for the invitation.
I really enjoyed it as well, and I wanted to say I learned a lot as well by the questions that you ask, and I'm still pondering, "How did I answer that; did I answer it right?" It's fascinating, I love these dialogues. So, thank you for this opportunity to have this conversation. I look forward to much more in the future.
David Green: Yeah, me too, and thanks very much for being on the show, Jacqui. And, listeners, we'll include those links in the show notes as well to the books, the McKinsey Health Institute, and Jacqui's LinkedIn as well, so thank you very much, Jacqui.