Episode 88: How Can Workplace Technology Support a New World of Work? (Interview with Nicky Hoyland)
This week’s podcast guest is Nicky Hoyland, CEO, and co-founder of Huler who talks about moving away from defining where work gets done and instead focusing on the task at hand, the ultimate goal we are striving towards, and letting people figure out for themselves the best way to do that.
As a self-proclaimed work tech nerd, Nicky talks about the role that workplace tech plays in a new world of work, enabling people to get work done in the easiest simplest way possible, so once again, we can focus on the end goal of business, above all else.
Throughout this episode, Nicky and I discuss:
How workplace tech has rapidly evolved over the last two years and what to expect of workplace tech, employee experience, and digital wellbeing, moving forwards
How to set up your hybrid meeting for success
How to create a culture of trust in the workplace, which is vital for performance
Support for this podcast is brought to you by Huler, you can learn more by visiting huler.io.
You can listen to this week’s episode below, or by using your podcast app of choice, just click the corresponding image to get access via the podcast website here.
Interview Transcript
David Green: Today, I am delighted to welcome Nicky Hoyland, CEO, and co-founder of Huler, to The Digital HR Leaders Podcast. Nicky, it is great to have you on the show. Let’s start with some introductions. Can you introduce yourself and also Huler?
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah, of course, and firstly, thank you for having me. I admitted before we started recording, I am a fan girl of the show, so it is great to get to be on. You have some brilliant guests and some awesome thought leadership, which I think is really helpful and has been superbly useful for people over the past 18-20 months, specifically.
So, I am Nicky Hoyland. I am the CEO and co-founder of Huler. I am a huge work tech nerd and how human beings interact with work technology and technology generally, but the most important part of that being human beings and how we interact with each other and how we build complex relationships and trust, and how inside of technology, we can really leverage that and enable that.
I guess a little bit in terms of my background, I worked as learning technologies manager at EE, for a period of time. So went through the whole merger of Orange and T-Mobile, and teams coming together, and lots of systems all over the place. I was finding it really interesting how people often struggle to have a human centred conversation, when it comes to technology. We either go too IT led and it’s too data driven and how people access it, its secure or it's locked down, or it is sometimes a touch too HR led, that might not have some of the stability and the security that we need.
Then over my period of time of working there, I started to work with externals, where they would come to us and say, hey, how have you managed to deliver what you have delivered? Which was a very hearts and minds piece around mobile learning at the time, back in the day, when that was all very new and topical. Which led to the co-founding of Digital Balance, where we created bespoke software and content solutions for the likes of Santander, L’Oréal, Expedia. And the conversation was, can it just? And it was, absolutely. Let’s jam that out and understand how tech can really help and enable.
Then spin the time forward somewhat, and I am now CEO of Huler. We have all of the bespoke work that we still continue to do, our SaaS products through the hub, which I will talk about today and all of our content services.
David Green: Firstly, thank you for the nice kind words about the podcast. As I joked before, that is two happy listeners now, with my mother, so thank you for that Nicky. But seriously, you are talking about technology with a human face, we have certainly had to use a lot of technology over the last 20, 21 months or so, with the pandemic. What has been your observation of that? How has that time, since back to February 2020, I suppose, impacted both the development, and use of workplace tech?
Nicky Hoyland: I think it is really interesting in that the technology didn't necessarily evolve or change at the rapid state of which adoption did, because we had to, right. We had our back up against a wall, we didn't know how we were going to continue to be able to function and operate without the use of technology because these structures and this way of work that was so familiar and so institutionalised, I guess in a lot of us, that is the way we have always done things, was completely ripped apart.
I think that the introduction of technology enabled people to start to work. I think we saw a large period of time where let's just do what we did face-to-face inside of tech, which I think has brought its own challenges too.
I do think we were just more open to change and if we tried something before, could we try that differently? Could we try a multitude of tools, that possibly we even used outside of work previously, that felt familiar to us, felt like it added a less cognitive load. Enabled teams, not necessarily just from the business point of view of, hey there is an 18-month RFP process that we need to go through, every department needs to be aligned, and by the time we have done that, things have moved on.
People were just going and buying and consuming tech because they had to. I guess that has introduced a lot of tech complexity inside of the technology stacks that we have, but the brilliant thing about that was how human connection could flourish inside of those tech stacks that we bought in to play. And I guess one of my biggest concerns at the moment is some of the conversations of, well, let's just go back. I personally don't believe going back is ever the right call when we have learned so much and it has been such a time to experiment and find out what works and what doesn't work.
I think it is embracing that continued change, that continued progression and understanding that the future of work and the now of work, it's not six months, 12 months, six years’ time, it's now and it's been happening for some time. It has changed and we have to change with that, and technology has to change with that. Technology can really enable that, but it isn't just the answer. There is that whole trust, culture, process, communication, collaboration, where and when and how you work, I think has got to come into this full conversation.
David Green: Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? We have had the likes of the futurist, Heather McGowan, and April Rinne on, and they have talked about how the future of work was fast forwarded 5 -10 years, depending on your perspective, because of the pandemic, certainly in our use of technology. I guess there has been a conversation around remote work for a while but what the impact has been on wellbeing, burnout, and other things, clearly those things that we are still investigating at the moment. But I think we proved that we can work remotely, albeit in a crisis, maybe it will be a bit different when hopefully we come out of the crisis. But I think you are right, it is rare, if you look at the stage of human development, that we have gone back to what it was before. So, I guess, what the next is, is going to be the challenge. It seems employee expectation is of course one of the factors that companies are going to have to consider on what their mode of hybrid is, or like a couple of outliers who think that they are going to bring everyone back into the office. You obviously need to think about customers, you need to think about other things as well and employee expectations are going to be a big part in this.
I don't know what you are seeing out there from some of the companies you work with, but also listening to workers. You mentioned you were at the CIPD conference, I would be interested to hear some of the discussions that were there?
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah. There is so much inside all of that to unpack. Firstly, for me, and I spoke about this passionately when we were in true lockdown, the difference of remote work during having to work at home during a lockdown are widely, widely different. The impact on mental health, of not being able to literally switch off from a device because I have left one room, or if I was lucky enough to have a multitude of rooms, if I lived at home with parents, or a house share, or a studio or something, I left that space to literally move to go to somewhere else to open another screen to connect with people, or to unplug, I re-plugged in to something else. I think the impact of the unknown and obviously the health concern that COVID brought, and still continues to bring with it, had such a huge impact on burnout and on people’s perception of remote work.
I do think it is hugely important and there is absolute responsibility with businesses to start to look at how do we enable people to switch off? And it is something that I could speak out about passionately, how do we enable this concept of, right to disconnect? Which absolutely, the workforce and digital natives coming through and leaving university in a very different pattern and introduction to work than we have seen previously, that really matters to them. It really matters to all generations in the workforce, but it is this pattern that we have got into, this grind of we are always on. We are always expected to reply. We are always plugged into something. So, how do you balance this right to disconnect, which ultimately, we would say, right, we are switching off work systems in a very regimented way to enable you to work flexibly, which includes the where and when and how you want to work. Because the two cannot sit side-by-side.
There is stuff that we are working on that enables that inside of technology, that has that subtlety of suggesting it is time to disconnect. So actually, we are going to knock these things back because we are using data in a way that works for the user and enables the user rather than a stick to beat an individual with.
So, I think that the concept of really separating out remote work during the pandemic and remote work moving forward I tend to use the phrase, both internally and externally, work from anywhere. Because for me, it does include face-to-face interactions, whether that is in an office, in a Starbucks, in a customer’s site, because ultimately, we are human beings, we want connection. We want the ability to be with somebody in a physical space. So, I think this concept of, it's either or, you are either at home or you are in an office, I think we need to move past the bricks and mortar that surrounds you and actually, how do we enable this true work from anywhere, that is best for the team or the individual?
David Green: Yeah, and before we dive into some of the problems you are trying to solve with Huler Hub, it is also using technology to try and bring some sort of equality. So, for example, if there is a meeting going on and there are people in the office sitting in the room together, and there are two people joining virtually, remotely, how can you make that an equal meeting rather than just the two that aren’t actually physically in the room, almost being forgotten and not being included in it? And I guess technology can really help us there.
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah. I think there are real small things there, tips, that I would share with people, even where your screens are positioned in a room. Traditionally that was all around presenting, because we were all in the room and we were all looking up, whereas actually, if we lower that screen down so that it is at table level and the camera is at table level, suddenly we are not looking at each other from a different perspective.
If we can have meeting etiquette that extends outside of just the physical seats around the table, that says actually when there is a side conversation that happens in a meeting room it is disrupting for everybody else, and it is not necessarily as productive to the agenda at hand. So actually, ensuring that that is contained to those that have dialled in.
Making sure that there is a “how to dial-in” set up on the invite, so that you don't spend the first 10 minutes of the meeting, as we all do, with how to dial-in, did we set it up? How do you get invited? Again, that detracts from the meeting.
I think it is important that time at either the end or to start of the meeting is put aside, so that enables time for what people deem as this “water cooler” chat. I am not sure what sort of water coolers people stand by, that are as productive as some of the chat that comes out, but just enable that. It is not necessarily on the agenda, but what else do we need to cover? Or what else have people thought about during this time? So that we are not going back-to-back to back-to-back, which I think it's a bit of a game sometimes in people's calendars at the moment of, there is a slot I will fill that slot with something.
Having that general meeting etiquette that extends also to colleagues that are joining you in a digital format. I think if everybody agrees to that up top, it starts to ease that a little. But it is a lot harder to navigate from we are all dialled in on Zoom, to actually some of us are in and some of us are out. That is a more tricky dynamic.
Now all of the conversation at the moment is all based on the desk-based worker that can work from anywhere. I think we need to start to look at how does employee experience stack up when you have got duality of role, where people can’t, and by the nature of what they do, they have to be in a certain location. Or if that is solely the roles in your business, how do we ensure that this is a fair conversation. Which I think there are so many facets to this new world that nobody will get it right straight away.
David Green: It is going to be fascinating how it plays out. We have talked a lot about the new world of work. I would love to hear, what is a problem that Huler Hub is trying to solve for, or you are trying to solve with Huler Hub?
Nicky Hoyland: The challenge of the silos that work inside of a business has been there for some time, pre pandemic. So, finance will have the systems that they need, IT will have systems they need, learning and development might have what they need, marketing might have what they need. And then actually this how do you know, as an end user, where to go for what you need? If you don't know what you don't know, how do you try to find that out when there is this multitude of technology systems, user interfaces, user experience, passwords, datasets. And then with the pandemic, we have seen that increase in technology where teams that ultimately, it is the same system that they need, so project management let's say. The teams have gone, actually, this is what works for us, and we want Asana, or we want Basecamp, or we want to insert other name here, which is further increasing this siloed nature which if we are trying to work cross-functionally and we are trying to enable people through technology, bringing that into one place, so in this case Huler Hub. Huler Hub is the digital launchpad out to everything that you need inside of work.
Actually, outside of work and inside of work, because I am more than just the work that I do. I am going to pick up my personal device and I am going to check the New York Ranger score, I am a massive ice hockey fan, or I am going to check the latest podcasts that I want to listen to, or a Twitter feed, I am going to do those things, so actually, if you can enable me this one digital launchpad out to everything in my digital life that avoids this 40 systems I have to engage with, in a work context. There might be 12, 14, 15 different platforms that you can communicate with me or message me. My last count I think was 14 for me, across social media, Discord, WhatsApp, IMS, email and how do we bring that into one place to reduce that digital noise, that digital burnout, and start to ease some of the cognitive load?
I think as we touched on earlier, part of the evolution of Huler is that at the moment, we are very admin down and end user up. So how do we enable people to collaborate work that isn't just, here is everything on the LMS that you need. Well, here is everything in SharePoint you need. There is this way for an end-user to go actually, I can curate a collection and I can share. But as we start to evolve that, how do we then enable this juxtaposition of, I need the right to disconnect, but I also need to be able to work flexibly. So, enable technology that can go actually, the workplace stuff now is going to knock back so you can still engage with everything personally. But we are going to go a little bit further than that, so we are actually going to knock back some of the New York Rangers score or your Ocado shopping list and suggest that you have probably been plugged in for too long. So, we have got some sort of responsibility over your digital wellbeing that says let’s unplug, let's get outside, let's get some exercise, some fresh air and interact outside of just a digital space.
That is the challenge and some of the roadmaps that we are starting to deliberate inside Huler.
David Green: So, in short, it is one place that you go to access all the technology you need for work and for home and personal whatever, coupled with some analytics behind it, that helps support your wellbeing. So, i.e., David you have been spending far too long reading blogs about Liverpool football club, for example, just to twist the New York Rangers thing into a different sport.
Nicky Hoyland: Yes, so for me, that is less about what have you been doing, because I think sometimes that can be seen as a stick to beat people with. And more that 12 hours in a digital space, 13 hours, 14 hours, you need to be able to come away from that and relax and unplug. That is not necessarily something that we would enforce, it is a suggestion of a nudge.
So that is the evolution of the product, and it is that collaboration that, we all use this multitude of tech and I am used to being able to personalise stuff on my mobile device, how I want it to look, what images I want to use, something that represents me, that is inclusive of me, that understands I am more than just a number or a cog in a machine. So, trying to bring that into work technology, that just eases that cognitive load, is personalised for people, and it enables admins to say, hey, this is what we need you to see, and this is where you are going to go towards that.
David Green: So, you mentioned a couple of organisations that you are working with today. What was their motivation for using Huler Hub? I guess the benefit for the individual is linked to the benefit of the organisation, but what was the drivers behind the organisation?
Nicky Hoyland: There has been a multitude actually. One of them is return on investment of current technology and software, so we have a number of businesses that have upwards of seven different LMS, LXP, content platforms. To know where you need to go in order to get access to what, was such a challenge and that they were in large contracts, but people weren’t using them. So, to bring that into a space that was, hey, this is where you go first thing every morning and this is where you get up to everything that you need inside your digital life, enabled them to raise the profile of those systems and get people to exactly what they needed in two clicks. So rather than 16 clicks, you are straight to what you need when you need it.
That is a similar use case, we did a larger exercise with a company in the states where externally, you could apply for a role within two clicks on their website. They were absolutely keen and for all of the reasons that we know of retaining talent and progressing talent through up-skilling, but internally it took them 18 clicks to get to the same job. They had to go into large HRIS systems and navigate to where they needed to and then they didn't necessarily know the job was there or how to apply and so on. Again, in Huler, with audience management, that is on your front page. It is two clicks to get to what need.
I think this confusion of, where do I go to get to what? That isn’t, from a Huler point of view, just learning technology. That could be how you get straight to client contracts, how you get straight to a UAT environment, how you get straight to benefits packages. This is about, actually across the businesses, really reducing these silos.
Then the second thing from the end-user point of view, as you touched on, is that collaboration. I can't count the amount of times where I have said, did you send me that on Slack or Teams? Or was it on an email? And I spent so much time trying to find those things, that actually they productivity burn in a day is just huge. Whereas if I can create collections and then share them, I have got stuff in there about visits to New York, I have got stuff in there about ball packs, I have got stuff in there about work technology and events I want to be at, but they are all collections, curated and shared by me, the end user.
So, it is a really multi-faceted way of just reducing the noise.
David Green: So, it is a usability, adoption, collaboration, and experience.
Nicky Hoyland: It is important to me as well, from a vendor point of view, that everybody can play in the same sandpit, I think in our industry, we have seen over the years, a lot of head clash with vendors where there has been this reluctance to want to collaborate and work together to actually reduce some of that complexity and make this frictionless for our people. So, if we can enable that, then I don’t see why wouldn't you put all of these multitudes of things in? I think that it starts to just, as I say, help with that cognitive load.
In anybody’s day at work, the system that you need to navigate to, you need to be focused on what you guys are there to do, right? You want to be in the zone of why you are there, you don't want the whole, how do I get there? Where do I need to be? And it takes me so much time. Let's just reduce some of that and make it easier for people.
David Green: Sounds good to me, anyway.
And in terms of looking at the broader future of workplace tech, what do you think the future has in store for workplace tech? Obviously, it has been a time of lots of investment in workplace technology, particularly in the last 20 months, there has been a lot of activity going on, but I would be really interested to hear your thoughts about that.
Nicky Hoyland: I think we will see a lot more flexibility inside of technology. I think people will go less for high rise, large, big stacks, that are all quite difficult to be agile inside. Potentially you are purchasing things that you don't always necessarily require or need.
I think some of the nature of that is there is no, one silver bullet system for any business, because technology evolves and so does business, so does the way that we want to interact and engage with tech. So, I think certainly flexibility.
I think our end user and our people are being much more aware of the data that is tracked on them and how that is used for good. We are seeing companies now use that as a marketing criteria. So, the latest iOS allows me to control who can see what I do and don't do. And I think if we are using data to enable and really ensuring that our people can be the most productive, and we care about their digital wellbeing, and we care about their progression, I think there is real transparency of how that data is then started to be used.
I think personalisation. The more and more that we sit in disparate teams around the globe, and we work asynchronously, we need to be able to still feel a sense of connection together. And how we personalise that experience where we can, right down to the individual, that still makes sense inside of a team, that still makes sense inside of a function, and still make sense inside the business, but does understand that I am unique, and I might want to create focus tasks at certain times of day because that is how I work. I might want to access that on a multitude of devices, but I might have specific tasks that I do on different devices at different points of time.
So, I think, it is around this flexibility, choice, and personalisation that we will see the change in workplace technology.
David Green: I would love to dig a little bit into that trust thing. We do a lot of work in the people analytics space, which inherently is taking employee data, doing some analysis on it, and solving a business challenge, to put it in really simplistic terms. But obviously what you are trying to do is provide benefits to the people whose data it is, i.e., employees, and we talk about a fair exchange of value. So, employees are providing access to their data, they should get something from it and, as you said, there needs to be some transparency around what data is being collected, what business challenge is it trying to solve, how is it going to benefit employees, who is going to have access to that data, how are we going to keep it secure, and all those different things.
I would love to hear from you, how do you think organisations can focus on developing a culture of trust around technology?
Nicky Hoyland: That is a really interesting question because I think trust, inherently, needs to come outside of just technology. It needs to be inside of values and culture at an organisational level, and the way that you communicate with your people, if that sense of trust isn't there. So, I have had the question asked of me, when we have talked about people working remotely, and on calls with potential clients where they have gone, but how do you know what people are doing when you can't see them? And I am like, well, how did you know what they were doing when they were in the office? Because surely you just didn't go and stand by every individual and just monitor that screen all day?
So, we need to move out of this, just because I can't see you in a physical space, I don't know what you are doing. And that needs to come out of clear job descriptions, clear accountability, clear output, and continual feedback if that is not right or not where it needs to be. I think that real communication with our people, that then of course extends to technology. We saw, a few years back, that people didn't want one of their teams picking up a personal device, or they didn't want them going on their phone. The reality is, I am going to do that, so enable me to do that and trust me to know that actually I am very aware of what I need to do and how I best need to work. And if my output isn't to what is expected, then of course have that as a conversation with me. Give me technology that enables me to do that in terms of how, and when, and where, I want to be able to work, that does allow me to personalise things, that does allow me to communicate in a way that I am free to express myself and bring my whole self to work.
I think that it's core, this trust, has to come out of so much more than just inside of tech, because we are talking about human resources, human beings. The tech enables, culture enables, but it is all wrapped into the people that we do this for.
I think we will see more automation naturally come into that technology and people will be very aware of how that influences or changes their jobs. And I think taking people on that journey, if people feel communicated with as to what data are you tracking and why, and what is going to change. You are taking them on that journey with you, so that trust is felt on both sides I think, as well. I think an organisation that has put in technology to monitor people on camera all the time, or keystrokes, or mouse movements, I think it is more of a big brother way to implement technology than it is an enabler and a trust centric culture.
David Green: Yes, I would share that sentiment. I am not sure the real benefit to organisations of doing this, to be honest with you.
Nicky Hoyland: I have heard the stories of colleges in the states, putting in some of that tech, all the students have done is attach a wired mouse to a fan so that the fan will just move the mouse slightly, so it tracks the pattern. People will find a way around these things anyway. So, I think ultimately, we just need to connect with each other as human beings and ultimately, if you don't trust that person in your business, it is not just the technology that you don’t trust, it is them as the individual.
David Green: Trust is hard to earn, easy to lose, and then almost impossible to get back.
Obviously, you have been working in the technology field for a long time, you talked about working at EE 10 plus years ago, what is the number one piece of advice you would give to organisations looking to develop a culture of trust around workplace technology?
Nicky Hoyland: It has to start top down. And again, I don't necessarily think that is just inside of technology, I think that needs to be communicated and shared inside of your values. If there is new technology that is going in, explain why and ensure that wherever possible, that the technology is going in to aid productivity, aid personalisation, and ensure that people can connect and communicate. So, I think it is more around new technology strategy and buy in and enabling people to just work smarter and get to what they need quickly. Because that is what we all want, right? We are not putting stuff on our personal device that is harder to use, or takes longer to do, or feels more clunky, or I can't customise. We expect this consumer grade now, inside of work technology.
I don't know that that is necessarily focused solely around trust, but I think it is that engagement and enablers of technology that people then buy into, rather than they push against it. Which is the biggest waste of tech investment, when you buy something, another platform, then another platform, and more SAS, and people still don't use it because they don't know why.
David Green: But I suppose that is one of the problems you are trying to solve with Huler Hub. Rather than having to access multiple different technologies in a native way, you are putting that UI layer on top, so you can access them through one application that people can get used to. And can interrogate all those systems too, as you say, oh God, did I send that to someone on Teams on Slack or an email? Literally, it will tell you, yeah?
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah. Yeah, you got it.
David Green: Oh good, I am glad I picked that one up.
You talked at the start about the importance of human centricity. I would love to hear some of your favourite examples of how work tech can be used in a particularly human centric way?
Nicky Hoyland: I guess one of the things that I will pull in here is where we try to force face-to-face ways of collaborating, into online technology. It is like trying to put a round peg in a square hole. I think there was a period of time where we had to, and there was, frankly a bit of an excuse for it. But we are so far past that now. I think people that haven't evolved that and are still making some decisions that aren’t comfortable in a digital experience, they are not trying to encompass everybody in the room and then the people that are remote, and then not moving forward with that. I think it is absolute core, continually pulling back to, how as a human being, would you want to being engaged? If you have got seats around the table, I always have an empty seat and say, well actually, how would that person want to engage in this experience? Have we designed this that is suitable for them? Does it make them feel included?
When we talked about there being a variety of roles between desk-based and a non-desk-based roles, and in and out the office, and work from anywhere, I think we need to have this view of, how do we make this inclusive for all? Which is where I would say organisations that are taking a bit of that step back, but they are trying things. They are open to change, they are open to failure, they are opens to actually, let's take people on a little bit of a journey with us and understand, we won't just get this right overnight. There isn't this one silver bullet that people are going to do, that will solve this for people. It is about that evolution, and change, and experiment, that we need to embrace a touch more. I mean, that is where people are really getting it right. They go, that works with that team at that time of day.
I worked with a company a couple of weeks back, and through their utilisation of Huler, they started to go actually, with some of our asynchronous teams, how do we get to a place where we can go, we will use video recording, we will create a collection where one team that are in the States share their video, thoughts and outputs from the team meeting with an Asana board, or let's say insert other software name here. And then we will allow the secondary team, that perhaps are based over in New Zealand, to pick that up. They watch the video back, they look at the notes, they comment back, they record their video, and then we have got this really great way of communicating and collaborating that, when we do have those hours in the day that we can be on the same call and things can happen live, we will make real use of that time. Rather than trying to shoehorn in these different ways of working, we have gone well, how can you do that differently?
And I think companies like that, that approach those ideas, they try to experiment, those are doing really well because they are understanding the human beings that this is all for.
This isn't automation, it is not machine learning, it is not AI, that is coming in of course it is, but ultimately, we are doing all of this for human beings.
David Green: Again, whether you are using digital to replace a way you have done something, even if it is a face-to-face, particularly if it is going to be people face-to-face, not people virtual. Don't just take your analog process and digitise the same process, use the technology as a way to change the process and make the experience better. Presumably, you are a big advocate of actually designing things with employees rather than for them.
Nicky Hoyland: Absolutely. Again, it is that I feel engaged, I feel like I have been part of this, you have listened to me. Now ask your people how they want to work, ask how the team best functions. Start to listen to what they need, and react, and then evaluate it. If it doesn't work, no worries, let's try to do something differently. But again, if that is set out as the intention, as we have not done this before and we are trying to figure out the best way to do this, rather than just, we always did it this way in an office, so we are we going to do that across video. Let's just try to do things differently.
I think technology is such an enabler of that. There is so much new tech that comes out, that those people that bring that in to go well, actually I use this outside of work, why don't we bring in more things like that?
When Clubhouse was huge during core of the pandemic, I saw so many more people that I engage with in a work context, send me voice notes, send me WhatsApp’s with a voice memo to it, than I ever did before, because there was this medium of, I just need to share with you some dialogue that isn't necessarily a text, it is not necessarily an email, I don’t need to call you because you might be busy, but I am just going to give you a bit of a download of my thoughts. And that was all coming out of different platforms and different mediums.
So, I would say sometimes, certainly from an HR lens, look outside of our world, outside of your industry, what are other people doing? And then inside of consumer tech, what is going on and what are people trying? Let’s try and embrace some of that.
David Green: A bit of an incredible question, this one. What does finding the right balance between technology and a human touch actually look like?
Nicky Hoyland: I think we have touched on a lot of the core themes and trying to remember that personalisation, making that frictionless. As soon as that system is hard for me, it is already pulling cognitive load off of the task that I am there to do. As soon as it takes me longer than I need to, I will find a shortcut, I will find a different way of doing it. The whole concept of where WhatsApp came into businesses, where people just said let’s create a WhatsApp group and do this over here. So, people will find those ways. So, I think understanding that we are all different and communicate differently.
Personalisation for me, as I have mentioned a couple of times, is absolutely huge. Especially if we are not necessarily with those teams, we don't necessarily have a fixed abode or a desk, allow me to create my own workspace, that makes sense to me. I do that on my iPhone, I do it on my iPad, I do it in cloud-based systems. So, enable me to do more of that.
I think, not forgetting that ultimately as human beings, we do want to connect with each other. We want to learn about each other. We want to learn skills and share skills from each other that is about experience and story, and narrative and connection. So not forgetting that at its core we are not putting two machines together, we are putting two individuals together and enabling that to grow and flourish, I think is really important. Which when we touched on there, the meetings where some people are in the room and some people aren’t, enable that time for natural discussion.
I think we will see a lot more change with more digital natives coming into the organisation. They have gone through a very, very different experience into the world of work, than many of us did. They have a lot of different things that matter to them. We have got a lot more multi-generations working side by side, but why wouldn't you allow that to flourish inside technology, that just makes sense. Again, I think as soon as it is too cumbersome, people won't want to use it.
David Green: Certainly, one of the things I have heard from you is using technology to enable flexibility around where work is done, when it is done, and how it is done. I would love to hear a little bit more from you on that.
Nicky Hoyland: I think the focus at the moment, everybody is focused on where.
David Green: Yes, everybody does seem very focused on the where, don’t they?
Nicky Hoyland: It is all where. I have shared a lot externally, that I think at some point we will drop this whole hybrid work, remote work, work from anywhere, it is all work. Fundamentally we are all just doing a task, we are contributing towards a purpose, a value of an organisation, in order to make money for us all to live and have the lives in which we do. The last podcast I listened to, was all about the livelihoods that we all have. I think moving away from just the bricks and mortar or the location that you do what you do, the construct of this working day, it was all built around manufacturing and Henry Ford and this 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, 40-hour weeks and this is how it is done. Things have changed, things have evolved.
We are so much more aware of how our customers want to be engaged, so what platforms and when? How quickly do they expect to be responded to? What do they expect from a digital experience? Are they going to go in store? Did they expect something really rapid and always on? So, we are doing all of this research when it comes to customers, but we are not necessarily looking at that all the time when it comes to our people. And I think when we do, we start to realise that the wear of flexibility also ties into when. So, the thought is, if I am offering flexibility to help encourage working mums back to the workforce that have been hugely impacted by the pandemic. Actually, we need to enable flexibility of, you can work from home, but that also then encompasses when, because if you need to do a school drop off, or pick up, or your child is poorly, or whatever that might be, the two have to go hand-in-hand. So, I think creating some of these internal SLAs as teams that says, if I email outside of these times, that is my working pattern, but I don't expect you to reply. So, there is not then this drive of always on, digital burnout, and this repetition that we can get into, but allow a team to set that as an SLA.
So, we start to look at flexibility across teams and our own kind of working constructs. And then I think how ties into that. There isn't necessarily just one way to do a task and as human beings, we will find the way that works best for us, that is quicker, that is smarter, that functions best for our team. And that is all about change and evolution. So, allow people to explore that and experiment with how they need to be to be their most productive.
I think those three angles of where, when, and how, we start to look at flexibility and really start to open up the conversation. We are past, I am in the office three days, and I am at home two days, and this weird construct that we are trying to find, that is this golden rule that if I am honest, I am not sure it exists.
That doesn't remove the need for face-to-face interaction, of course it doesn't, but I just don't know that it needs to be in a set pattern.
David Green: And I guess from listening to what you are saying, organisations can enable that, but ultimately, they need to empower teams to set ways of working within the team, depending on how that team is constructed and with who. And as you said, then the when, and the how, can be dealt with as well. But yeah, I think we are fixated on the where, at the moment, hopefully we will become less fixated on the where, over the next 12 months or so.
Thinking more broadly, you have talked a lot about personalisation and clearly a lot of what we have been talking about is very much centred around employee experience. For you, what is the future of employee experience? How do you think we will see it change in 2022 and beyond?
Nicky Hoyland: Ultimately, we are going to see people wanting more of that consumer grade touch, inside of tech specifically. But I think when we think about employee experience, we go immediately to tech. So many people go straight to, well we will put a platform in for that, and I appreciate the irony of me saying that, given what I do. For me, an experience is something that creates a memorable mark on someone, especially given that a positive experience takes so much longer to register in our brain than a negative experience. So, we will be very quick to jump all over something negative. Whereas we won’t recognise the little fluidities of how somebody thought of something to be a better experience for me, because it is kind of just assumed. If something works you go, good, I expected that.
So, I think understanding that we need to meet employees more at where they are at. We need to look at the employee experience as we would a customer experience and understand that that has changed, and it has evolved.
The world of work is now different. So, to try to measure your employee experience without understanding that it is different, I think you need to try to align those two things.
What does good look like to you? Because what good looks like in one industry might be very, very different to what good looks like in a different industry.
Listening to more of what people are telling you and actually acting on that. It is all well and good to go, we will do a pulse survey and we ask people how they are feeling about things, and then we do another pulse survey. Whereas actually to go what are people saying? What do they want? What do they need? Where can we improve? Where could we ask for feedback? Where can we implement change? And listen a lot more, I think is hugely important.
But knowing what good looks like and what data are you going to capture to measure that? Because there is no point setting out on a journey of, we are going to improve something, without knowing where you start and where you are trying to get to.
David Green: Yeah, I agree that the action, and the communication that you have actually done that action, and then what has happened as a result of the action, I think is so important, as you say.
Finally, last question, this is the question we are asking everyone on this series. How can HR help the business identify critical skills for the future?
Nicky Hoyland: Re alignment of the business purpose, those inside of culture, values, where is the business trying to get to. Understanding the industry, understanding competitors as well in that industry, so that you can enable whether that is through up-skilling, re-skilling, talent mapping, those people to be best aligned to that vision, to the output, to that strategy.
I think trying to understand the real employee centric focused alignment of HR into the business. That HR isn't necessarily seen as this disparate arm that is quite siloed and away, they are a true business partner inside of the organisation.
I think embracing these new ways of working and digital natives coming into the organisation, but also understanding we have got a multitude of people working side by side, and the richness of an experience that that offers our businesses and organisations.
And ultimately again, just constantly pulling back to focusing on the human. Because the data side, the automation, the more and more tech we will see come into the organisation, is great but that is something that is automated. That is not a human skill, that is not a human connection. So how can we bring humans right back in to front and centre of the world of HR, inside of this unknown, over the next many years in the future of work and where skills sort of change and adapt.
David Green: Yeah, and as you said, using data and analytics technology to help us be more human rather than less human.
Nicky Hoyland: Absolutely, yeah. I think that is why we get it wrong sometimes, we go straight to the tech connection rather than human connection, which is enabled through tech, right. And I think if we can pull all the way back to who are doing this for, I think that is where we can start to get some real clear wins and alignment.
David Green: Well, Nicky, thanks so much for being a guest on The Digital HR Leaders Podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation. How can listeners stay in touch with you, follow you on social media, and find out more about your work and also about Huler?
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah. So, I am Nicky Hoyland on LinkedIn. I am NickyH on Twitter, and you can contact me on any of those mediums. You can learn more about Huler at huler.io.
David Green: That is brilliant. Nicky, thanks very much for your time. I really enjoyed speaking to you and I would love to speak again, in a few months’ time when hopefully we are out of the pandemic, and we will see how some of this stuff is bedding in.
Nicky Hoyland: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.