Episode 189: How LEGO Integrates People, Places and Culture (Interview with Loren Shuster)
We all know the world of HR is changing. With the introduction of new technologies and a shift toward more holistic approaches to employee experiences, the traditional boundaries of human resources are rapidly evolving. So, what does modern HR look like today? At LEGO, it looks like a groundbreaking HR model they call "People, Places, and Culture.
To explore how this innovative HR framework is setting new standards in the industry, in this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, host David Green is joined by Loren Shuster, Chief People Officer at the LEGO Group.
Topics covered in the discussion include:
An examination of LEGO's holistic approach to integrating "People, Places, and Culture," and how it aligns with broader business objectives.
A discussion on how this model influences LEGO’s strategies in talent management, workplace design, and cultural development.
Insights into how LEGO utilises technology and analytics to support its innovative HR practices and maintain its commitment to continuous innovation.
An analysis of the impact of these HR practices on creating a flexible and adaptive organisational culture.
An exploration of the broader implications for other organisations looking to innovate their HR practices in similar transformative ways.
For anyone interested in understanding how an integrated HR framework can transform an organisation’s approach to workforce management and enhance overall organisational effectiveness, this episode is a must-listen.
Support from this podcast comes from Worklytics, a people centric analytics solution that combines passive listening with Organisational Network Analysis (ONA) to help you understand how work is getting done.
Curious to see how it works? Worklytics is offering a free Collaboration Analysis to the first 10 qualified companies who express interest by clicking on the following link: www.worklytics.co/DigitalHRLeaders
[0:00:00] David Green: The LEGO Group is perhaps one of the most recognised and iconic brands on the planet. And for the last two years, it has been ranked as the most reputable company in the world in the annual global RepTrack 100 survey. The LEGO Group is also a pioneer in HR, and so I'm delighted that my guest in this episode of the show is Loren Shuster, Chief People Officer at The LEGO Group. Most of us know LEGO as a pioneer in play, but behind the scenes what drives its commitment to innovation is its vibrant culture and strategic work environments that coalesce to redefine what a modern HR function looks like. At The LEGO Group, HR is called People, Places and Culture.
I'm particularly excited to delve into LEGO's innovative People, Places and Culture model, which Loren and his team have developed, as it not only focuses on the holistic experience of employees, but also integrates physical and cultural dynamics to enhance performance and satisfaction across the board. Today, Loren will share how this transformation has influenced the LEGO Group's strategies in talent management, workplace design and cultural development. We will also explore how these elements are interwoven with LEGO's broader business objectives, and how they leverage technology and analytics to support their innovative people practices. With LEGO's innovative approach to HR, there's a lot we can learn about fostering a culture that not only embraces change, but is built around it. With that, let's get started.
Loren, welcome to the show. The majority of Chief People Officers that join me on the podcast tend to have had a kind of career journey through HR, but I know your journey's been different and you'd spent most of your career, I think, in marketing prior to taking over as Chief People Officer at the LEGO Group. I'd love to know what brought you to the world of HR, what was your journey?
[0:02:14] Loren Shuster: So, yes, you're right. This is my first HR role. I've been the Chief People Officer at the LEGO Group for the past six years. And before that, I'd been in commercial marketing, general management roles. I actually started at the LEGO Group approaching ten years now as the Chief Commercial Officer. And the short version of a very long story is that I became interested, in my late 20s, in personal development and explored a whole range of interventions from mindfulness to yoga to therapy to counselling to group work, initially more from a personal development perspective. And then, that led me to bringing some of those insights and perspectives into organisations.
I've done a lot of esoteric development work, a lot of academic work, even went back to school while I was at Google and did a second master's in organisational psychology, which I completed in 2015, so not that long ago, at least in a 54-year-old lifetime; and explored, while I was at Google actually, potentially, and started to wonder what it would be like or what kind of influence I could have with my commercial background, my interest in the people and talent and system dynamic space, sitting in an HR seat. That's when I started to explore potentially moving into HR, had discussions with Laszlo Bock, who many of your listeners would know, a legend in the HR professional arena.
Then circumstances unfolded themselves at the LEGO Group where I was given the opportunity to take on this challenge, and I haven't looked back since. It's been a fantastic journey.
[0:04:16] David Green: A couple of things just bouncing off that, Loren. Firstly, I guess, what have you learned from six years being the Chief People Officer at LEGO Group; what did you wish you'd known maybe before you'd started; and then also maybe, coming from that commercial background, what was your initial perspective of HR and what could you say HR could learn from other business units, and maybe what could other business units learn from HR as well?
[0:04:42] Loren Shuster: Yeah, a lot of good questions in there. So, maybe I'll start with the last question. I think when I transitioned into the Chief People Officer role, it was interesting. One of my earlier insights, which sounds very simple and straightforward, but I think has quite a lot of deeper significance, was that when in the first three or four months, I was getting feedback from the team that maybe I was being overly demanding or I wanted things very quickly, and I was wondering why I was getting that that feedback. And then it kind of occurred to me that coming from the commercial arena, where the feedback loops are incredibly fast, especially the LEGO group, we own and operate our own retail channel, lego.com, so I mean we're getting data and feedback about our marketing campaigns or our product launches literally hour by hour, in some cases minute by minute. So, when you're in the commercial arena, you're trained to have that orientation towards action, response, iteration, action response, and it's very different in the HR domain.
What I realised is that HR is working, and I'm generalising now, but HR works within a paradigm of deeply institutionalised annual processes. And of course, things have moved on, and with analytics, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, there's far more rapid feedback mechanisms. And at least at the LEGO Group, we've removed some of the big, overburdensome, bureaucratic processes, which were adding value, but were they adding enough value relative to the investment, the time, and the resources put in? We challenged those, so happy to speak about that. So, that was really the big insight, is how to partially adapt my own expectations about clock speed and agility and momentum, but to a large extent, also try and inculcate a way of working and a new paradigm within the HR community within the LEGO group.
You asked me, David, I've learned a lot, and I learn a lot each and every day. And I've learned the hard way in the last six months about maybe communicating in a more traditional way, where we haven't been as explicit about what process have we undertaken, and what data inputs, and who have we involved, and then share the decision, because not everyone is going to be happy. When you have an organisation of 30,000 people, not everyone is going to be happy with all the initiatives, all the decisions. We could take flexible working; we have an approach called Best of Both. It's a rule of thumb of three days in the office, two days flex. Of course, there's people that want more flexibility that we're not prepared to offer, happy to talk about that as well.
But the point is, it's one thing to agree or not agree with the final decision, but it's so important that all employees get a sense that a fair and thorough and thoughtful process was taken, and that can be addressed with, I think, a different and new and more modern, more relevant way of communicating. So, that would be one example, but I learn a lot every day.
[0:08:33] David Green: You mentioned that HR at the LEGO group is called People, Places and Culture. It's interesting that you've brought those three things together, and then actually we are seeing that in other organisations as well. But maybe for listeners that don't have those three things together, why People, Places and Culture, why bring them together?
[0:08:51] Loren Shuster: Yeah, and thanks for the question. And it's a relatively new construct. It's established since January 1. And I think what I was pointing out before, what's maybe unique about it relative to a traditional HR culture is that social responsibility, corporate brand communications and workplace experience are all embedded in that, and we saw an opportunity to capitalise on the overlap. I mean, these functions go whether it's corporate brand communications or workplace experience or social responsibility, there's part of those functions that do things that are distinct and discreet from, let's say, the people agenda, particularly corporate brand communications gets involved in engaging directly with our end consumers and our shoppers, and that's more a set of activities that's aligned with our product and marketing organisation, with our commercial organisation.
So, there's clearly discrete activities, but there's significant overlap or convergence of key themes that are really important to us. If I take the social responsibility agenda as an example, at the LEGO Group that includes some things that are common across that agenda and other organisations, like volunteering. So, volunteering and engaging your employees to volunteer, to engage in the communities that they operate in, is clearly about mobilising people, mobilising employees. HR knows how to do that. Volunteering also says something about your culture, who you are as an organisation, and it's a manifestation of living your purpose. It's also a domain of, let's say, the HR or the people and culture agenda.
Then if I take workplace experiences, I mean this, I don't think, is too difficult for anyone to get their head around, especially in the world post-COVID of flexible working, which is not only about what is the organisation's belief around how many days in or how much flexibility, but even more importantly, how does work have to change and the design of work and the design of offices? And I think all organisations, no one has solved this. We're all on a journey, but we are clearly experimenting with different types of workplace experiences, building more flexibility into the design of offices to accommodate for different types of work and work settings. So, we saw that as another opportunity.
Maybe the last one I'll bring up in the context of, since I know you're very focused on analytics and insights, we see a huge opportunity certainly within the LEGO Group. I know strategic workforce planning means different things and different organisations, could be super, super-complex, could be more simple. But within the LEGO Group, we have a challenge. It's very difficult to predict exactly what capabilities you're going to need, and in what time frame. But we also had the additional challenge of where we want to place those capabilities. And we have a big headquarters in Billund in Denmark, which is where the LEGO Group was founded 92 years ago, and then we have hubs. We have a hub in London, we're building a hub in Copenhagen, we're building a new Americas and global hub in Boston. So, where to place this talent and how to use analytics across the workplace, across HR people planning agenda, to make sure that we have capacity, we have the right workplaces for the right capabilities. We're nowhere near solving this by the way, but we see an opportunity by bringing these functions of the workplace and HR closer together.
So, those are some examples. And maybe one other which is unique to the LEGO Group, which just gives me an opportunity to share something I feel is unique and I'm proud about being associated with, in our social responsibility agenda, we also have a function which is all around bringing the benefits of play into the workplace. So, we actually have a role at the LEGO Group called a Play Director. And we train thousands of employees in terms of the benefits of learning through play, which are the qualities that we bring to children, and that's around our mission of inspiring and developing the builders of tomorrow, but how to infuse play in our day-to-day workplace. So, that is clearly, again, a huge link to our culture, to mobilising people, to our ways of working, our values, so on and so forth.
[0:13:51] David Green: How much of this has had an impact on your new HR model? So, I've taken this from an interview you've done, but I'm going to read it as well because I think it's really good, "It's a three pronged framework, it encompasses product management", I guess bringing in some of your expertise from the commercial side there, "communities of excellence and flexible business partnering". Love to learn a little bit more about that and how that fits in with the People, Places and Culture.
[0:15:21] Loren Shuster: Yeah, for sure. So, let me start with communities of excellence. So, this is really an evolution of the centres of excellence, and I think every HR organisation has some form of COEs, and I still think it's a super-relevant anchor in an HR organisation. Where we've evolved it, and I'll paint it a little bit black and white, it's of course more nuanced, is that traditionally COEs, whether it's in the rewards and benefits space or the talent or the learning and development, historically and again a bit black and white, these functions have designed policies, initiatives, programmes, strategies, on behalf of the whole organisation and kind of in the background, and one day launch it to the org, and then are faced with all kinds of learnings and considerations. And of course, it's far more nuanced than that.
But we wanted to move away from, let's say, that end of the continuum to a place where the centres of excellence evolve into communities of excellence, meaning that everything we create, from defining the problem we're trying to solve for, to conceptualisation, to testing and iterating, to launching and communicating, to embedding, is done within a community framework. And for us, what that means is that each and every initiative, we select 10 to 15 people, depends on the size and scale of the initiative, which is a combination of representatives from the People, Places, and Culture, but more importantly to some extent, our colleagues in the organisation and different levels of seniority, different tenure, they're representing different employee groups, and therefore we have a higher probability of success because it's co-designed. So, you get it right, you get the input. We have inbuilt change agents and colleagues who are ready to go out and speak on behalf of these initiatives because they've helped co-create them.
Then we have a very strong signal to the organisation is, "Hey, look, we have run a process where you, our colleagues, are represented from beginning to end. And now we're actually trying to expand that to the social responsibility work that we do, to the workplace experience work, obviously getting different user groups or different colleague groups involved in how do you want to use the space, and doing different research with them to observe and gain insight". Then what's probably more unique to the LEGO group, I know when I share with other CHROs they're quite intrigued and interested in the pool of partners, how we manage that, so we have about 65 people partners, or HR business partners in the organisation, and they all report into one person, who's actually my HR business partner. And then we have a small team centrally called the Global People Partner Project Team. And the intent is that of course a HR business partner's workflow changes depending on what's going on, and of course the organisation has different priorities. So, what we wanted to be able to do is to mobilise internal resources to the most important projects and initiatives when they arise, which tend to be big organisation changes or benchmarking exercises or process remapping or productivity exercises.
So, now what we do is we work off an assumption that we could free up, call it 25% of each HR business partner's time, and we get the list of all the priorities within the LEGO group from the different functional areas. We decide which are the most important of those priorities, sequence them, what kind of resourcing we need, and then we ask the partner pool. Sometimes we'll select people with a particular skill, but we ask the partner pool who's got the capacity now, who has the interest, and for them it's a development opportunity as well.
[0:19:57] David Green: What role did data analytics have in setting up the new HR model; and maybe a wider question, what role do you envisage people, data and analytics having at the LEGO Group in the future?
[0:20:55] Loren Shuster: Well, super-important in the future. But if I go back six years ago, and it's less of a judgment or criticism, LEGO six years ago was a long time in technology and data and analytics, as you know also, seeing how your company and the work that you do has grown so much. So, six years ago, the situation that we were facing was, we actually lacked any modern technology from an HR technology stack, if you want to refer to it like that. So, we were operating off a pretty outdated HR system that was holding us back. And unless you have a more modern cloud-based core HR system, I mean you don't get to build the relevant apps around that that could plug in from an API perspective and tap into all the amazing technology that's being generated in the HR tech landscape, and there's a lot of things we could discuss around that.
So, our first decision was, and it's always a challenging one or it's a long process, selecting a new HR core, HR system. We decided to go with Workday and that's a multi-year journey. So, once we had Workday in place, then we could start building technology on top of it. And we have an analytics layer, which is Visier, that we've been working with. And now we're on our way, like many other organisations, towards a skills-based knowledge and learning and development environment, and we're working with and piloting some of SkyHive's technology. And now, we will be moving to, how do we take this now to the next level? So, it's going to be super, super-important. It's the foundation, really I think, of all of our core HR initiatives and functions within HR moving forward. But you need the core foundation, and then you start building the capabilities piece by piece.
[0:23:10] David Green: How's that HR model impacted your approach to some of those initiatives, and maybe particularly as it relates to workplace culture and leadership? And if you could share any examples, that'd be fantastic.
[0:23:22] Loren Shuster: Yeah, well I think it's often not spoken about when you talk about different transformations or changes made in an organisation, about what you strip out, like the three-by-three matrix and the calibration. We used to have calibrations, like many organisations have, and I would never say that they don't deliver value. But we did analysis, I can't remember the exact number now, but it was something crazy like 26,000 man hours went into that process every year. So, it was relative to that investment, are we getting the value out of it? So, we decided to strip it out, and many colleagues were initially like, "Holy cow, how could you strip that out? It's so deeply institutionalised". But I could tell you that no one's asking for it back. So, there's something about simplifying, stripping out stuff that's no longer needed.
We had a similar exercise when it came to our leadership approach and leadership model, being a company with a long legacy. We had, I don't know, 30-something, 30 different models and matrices describing leadership at the LEGO Group, and we had to strip those out and replace them with something new, which was the leadership playground. So, I think that's how our model tries to work, to simplify things, and I think having this community of excellence approach and the product approach, which is all about a user and user-orientated mindset, which in our case is colleagues in the organisation, I mean they'll quickly tell you when things are, "Wow, this is getting way too complicated and we need to simplify, and what's absolutely necessary, what input versus output?"
[0:25:15] David Green: So, I'm fortunate, I get to go to quite a lot of HR and people analytics conferences, and we run a lot of events at Insight222 as well, and particularly people analytics leaders are getting a lot of questions around these two topics at the moment. And I'd love to hear your perspective, as a Chief People Officer, around some of the work that you're doing or thinking of doing using skills and AI, and you mentioned earlier that you're in the early days of a skills-based approach to talent management at the LEGO Group. I'd love to know why have you embarked on the skills journey; how's it going so far? You said it's quite early days. And what's the destination that you're trying to get to?
[0:25:55] Loren Shuster: Great, no, it's a fantastic question. I have a lot of discussions with colleagues and peers and other organisations around this. So, I think it may be a good place to start. At the LEGO Group, our starting point not that long ago, call it 12 months ago, was that we had different learning academies, pretty much in each function in the organisation. And they were all doing great work in their respective area, but very different approaches to skill development, to pedagogy, to evaluation, to assessment, to ROI, not to mention the productivity part of it, using many different vendors versus consolidating vendors, using different technology. So, it was a fragmented approach.
So, part of our skills journey is coming up with a common taxonomy and a common approach to skill development or capability development. So, that was our answer to addressing some of that fragmentation. So, what we've decided to do organisationally, we've created an integrated learning function, we call it LEGO You, and we've integrated all of the academies. So, that was the first step to get the organisation integrated. And now we're developing what we call One LEGO Learning Plan. And to no surprise, what we found is there's some inefficiency, of course, especially on the more general skills around leadership, negotiation, feedback, which applies there across whatever function you're in. We saw a lot of duplication, so we're able to streamline some of that work. So, that was the first step.
Then the second step, which was somewhat happening in parallel, was to think about what are we really trying to achieve here. And it's hard to get through all the complexity of everything that's being talked about and written about skills. So for us, very simplistically, our goal is to ensure that our organisation and our colleagues know their skills and we know them, so simply knowing what skills we have today, then being able to grow their skills in whatever direction they want; so, if a colleague wants to move from sales to marketing, to know what type of skills they need to cultivate to be seriously considered for a role in marketing. Maybe search engine marketing would be a skill they would need to develop. So, the second piece is about being able to grow those skills.
Then the third is the real unlock, which I think is of common interest to employees and the organisation as a whole, which is to develop careers in a dynamic manner, hopefully increase the amount of internal fill rate that we could have. So that's, in simplistic terms, what we're trying to achieve. Then behind that is the technology, and there we're in the early phases. We're just piloting. We ran an RFP, we decided to start this initiative with SkyHive. There's a lot of interesting players out there, and so we're testing, by the end of this first half, we'll test with 1,000 colleagues. And it's illuminating all kinds of things that we need to improve in terms of our job profiling and our job catalogue, and I could go on and on. There's a lot of technicalities which is helping to bring more consistency. So, basically the whole backbone of the organisation needs to be, to some extent, kind of redesigned in a manner that is then scalable moving forward.
Then the vision ultimately would then be to move to a much more dynamic talent marketplace, where you're using AI to identify the right person with the right skills for the right task at the right point in time in the right location. That's ultimately where we hope to get to. I don't think all of this will be governed by some machine, because of course it could give clues as to who might be suitable for a particular task or role, but then there's always human beings behind everything we do, who may have personal preferences, constraints, mobility.
[0:30:37] David Green: What are your views on AI, as a Chief People Officer of an enterprise organisation such as the LEGO Group, and how do you balance reality with expectation?
[0:31:39] Loren Shuster: It's a great question and of course, I'm following it like any other Chief People Officer, probably like any other human being who is fortunate enough to live in a world surrounded by the most modern technology. I mean, there's no doubt this is one of the most significant technological developments of our lifetime, I mean there's no doubt. But I learned this somewhat transitioning from Google to the LEGO Group, where I came in and didn't do this well, so it's a good learning. Ten years ago, obviously, and before Google, I was at Nokia, so I was embedded in the technology industry for many years, and then came into the LEGO Group and you need to adopt everything and we need to move faster, and it simply wasn't true. I mean, every context needs to be understood to then determine what technology is most effective, what threats exist, what opportunities exist. So, I've learned to, or maybe it's just age, to be a little less excited, even though personally I'm curious about and consider myself normally at the forefront of trying and testing new technologies.
But I think there's something to this insider expression that technology, big technology introductions like ChatGPT and NAI, that we tend to overestimate their short-term impact and underestimate their long-term impact. And I've no doubt that that's what's happened out of the gates, because all of a sudden a tool was available in a user-friendly way for hundreds of millions of people. So, I think we all got very, very excited and everyone was under pressure, certainly in publicly traded companies, CEOs being asked, "How are you going to apply it?" And I think there's some industries that it has a more direct and immediate impact, and there's others, like a manufacturer, the LEGO Group, we create physical play experiences, that it's not going to undermine our business or change the competitive landscape in the short term. So, we have time to be grounded, to test and learn and to develop our understanding over time. So, I think it's important to first do an analysis on where does your industry sit; is it a threat or is it more an enabler; is it a productivity tool; and how important it then is in your overall strategic agenda.
But there's no doubt, I mean, we already are testing different things within the LEGO Group. We have chatbots that we're working in our consumer services. There's no doubt that you could see how AI can help colleagues just find the relevant information about policies, or anything that the HR organisation is producing, and how do you send the right information at the right time. And as individuals, I always recommend just play around with the stuff. Force yourself to experiment on your own, because just as human beings living on earth in 2024, I mean this is going to impact us more and more with each year that passes, but probably a bit slower than the hype.
[0:35:12] David Green: What it also makes me think, Loren, is as a Chief People Officer, sometimes you have to kind of get beneath the hype and think about what's relevant for your own organisation as well. And I wonder what guidance you would maybe offer other Chief People Officers, not just around AI, but maybe aspiring Chief People Officers as well; what are some of the things that you would offer, from your experience of doing this role for six years now, for anyone that wants to step into this role maybe in the coming years?
[0:35:42] Loren Shuster: The Chief People Officer can be an incredibly influential role, because so much of what the Chief People Officer is accountable for is dependent on alignment with the CEO and the executive leadership team, because what ultimately I think all Chief People Officers should be focused on is, how do you create the right context for people in the organisation to thrive so that they could deliver the best results for the company? And that's a super-high level of abstraction, but I find it's super-interesting to spend a significant amount of my time thinking about at the system level, how do you drive systemic change in an organisation of tens of thousands of people spread across the globe? The complexity is enormous. I find that super, super-interesting. But again, if you could form those relationships, then I think it can be hugely, hugely influential.
Then of course there are skills that anyone would bring to the role that are relevant. I bring my background in the commercial space. I think the extent to which any aspiring Chief People Officer can spend time working outside of HR is hugely beneficial, because by definition, even this whole debate about having a seat at the table, by definition even if you have a seat at the table, you're learning academically versus being embedded in a particular function or business unit in the organisation where you're living and breathing a different part of the business. So, if those opportunities are available, I would highly recommend. Of course, I'm biased from my own experience.
Then maybe the last thing to say is, never forget with all the technology, and I have to remind myself of this, and all the systemic thinking, I mean we're talking about human beings in the end. And paradoxically, I think HR organisations can over mechanise the organisation with excessive tools and bureaucracy that actually takes away the humanity in an organisation.
[0:38:16] David Green: Well, Loren, I can't believe we've already got to the last question. So, this is the question we're asking everyone on the series, and we've touched on this a little bit really, but it'd be good to bring those thoughts together maybe in one answer. How can HR leaders harness the power of employee insights and analytics to revolutionise the workplace, not necessarily revolutionise, but to provide insight to the workplace experience?
[0:38:46] Loren Shuster: Yeah, it's a big question. And outside, we touched on some of the technical part of it. I mean, you need to build a foundation, you need the right technology, you need a scalable platform, and so on and so forth, and obviously you need the right capabilities. But I think it's ultimately, to me, the goal has to be about enabling each and every person to be as much of themselves each and every day so that they can deliver the highest level of output for the organisation. And that's easy to say on an individual basis, but then you have the complexity of, okay, but that complex individual human being is interacting with another complex human being, in a pair, in a triad, in an intact team, in an informal team and that's where analytics and insights has to play a role, because the complexity is exponential and the analytics and insight can provide pointers and insights as to how to unlock that potential that I'm talking about, so people can show up and do their best work as the constellations become more and more complex, as we know they're going to continue with Agile teams and intact, informal teams. I mean, that's project teams. I mean, all of that is only growing. So, to me, that's the essence of what's on offer with building a strong analytics capability in the organisation.
[0:40:26] David Green: Well, Loren, I can't believe we got to the end, as I said, of the conversation. Before we go, could you let listeners know how they could potentially get into contact with you, I think you do a little bit of stuff on LinkedIn, and maybe follow the work that you're doing at the LEGO Group as well?
[0:40:42] Loren Shuster: Yeah, for sure. Well obviously, we publish a lot on lego.com, and anyone interested, we're hiring and we continue to grow. So, anyone interested can follow any of the jobs we have available. And then, there's a lot published about the work we do, our culture and our different artifacts that shape our culture. Then, I'm relatively active on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is definitely the best place to get in touch and feel free to reach out, any curious questions about the LEGO Group, looking to share from your own organisation. We engage with a lot of people, we're happy to share. We like to learn and be inspired, but LinkedIn would be the best spot.
[0:41:25] David Green: Perfect. Well, Loren, thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, and the fantastic work that you and the team are doing at the LEGO Group with listeners of the podcast. Thank you very much, I've really enjoyed the conversation.
[0:41:36] Loren Shuster: Thanks to you, David.