Episode 223: How Manulife Improved Employee Experience Through Transforming Its Organisational Culture (Interview with Katherine Macnaughton)
For many employees, work is more than a paycheck—it’s an opportunity to contribute to something bigger. But for organisations, creating a culture where purpose is more than just a slogan requires bold action and thoughtful strategy.
One organisation that has achieved this successfully is financial services company Manulife.
So, in this must-listen episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, host David Green sits down with Katherine Macnaughton, Vice President of Global Talent Management and Development at Manulife, to discuss how Manulife is embedding purpose into every stage of the employee journey.
Tune in as they explore:
The catalyst that sparked Manulife’s cultural transformation
How the Better Campaign is creating a more engaged workforce
The business impact of aligning employees with a shared purpose
Preparing for the future and Generative AI readiness with Manulife’s Pursuit Program
Addressing job security concerns in the age of AI
Listen now to learn how Manulife is redefining what it means to work with purpose.
This episode is sponsored by Amazing Workplace, an AI-powered platform designed to help companies grow and succeed by unlocking the full potential of their people. By providing the most accurate insights into how employees feel and why, Amazing Workplace equips leaders with powerful tools to drive meaningful improvements where they matter most.
With Amazing Workplace, companies have reduced turnover by up to 90%, have increased revenue by over 400%, and solved recruitment. Find out more at www.amazingworkplace.com
[0:00:00] David Green: Work is a subset of life, not separate from it. And if we are honest with ourselves, we can all agree that we want work that feels meaningful, where we're not just clocking in and out, but truly connected to a purpose. However, as employers and HR leaders, the challenge here is creating a culture where purpose isn't just a slogan but a reality, where employees feel valued, engaged, and aligned with the company's mission. But how can we make that successfully happen across the whole employee life cycle?
I'm David Green, and today on the Digital HR Leaders podcast, I'm joined by a leader who has been at the forefront of making this happen at her organisation, namely Katherine Macnaughton, Vice President of Global Talent Management and Development at Manulife. Manulife is a financial services company with a mission to help people make decisions about their future faster and easier through financial advice, insurance, and wealth and asset management solutions. But behind the scenes of its global success has been its workplace culture transformation, ensuring that its employees feel a deep sense of purpose in the work they do. What's Manulife's secret to making purpose a driving force in their organisation? We will find out in just a moment but first, let's welcome Katherine to the show.
Katherine, welcome to the show, really looking forward to our conversation. Before we get started, can you introduce yourself to our listeners, tell us a little bit about your background, and also your role at Manulife?
[0:01:45] Katherine Macnaughton: Great, thanks David. Pleasure to meet you and to be here with you today. So, yes, as mentioned, I lead Global Talent Management and Development for Manulife. And essentially, my team and my role is to ensure we've got the right talent and the right roles to help drive our business forward. And so, what does that really mean? We support all things development-related, so enterprise learning, could be ways of working, could be things like leadership development or accelerated development for our top talent, as well as coaching and assessments and career management. So, it's really all about how do we plan to make sure that we've got the right talent, and then how do we get to know that talent so we can grow them appropriately?
[0:02:33] David Green: In terms of that, I mean you say a real role of responsibility, I guess, for you and your team. What do you consider to be your proudest achievements thus far at Manulife?
[0:02:45] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, that's a really great question and I'm really happy to answer it. I'm really proud of our culture of excellence at the organisation. And as part of our strategy, high-performing teams is one of the key pillars that all leaders are being held accountable to. And our culture and that high-performing teams priority are a strategic differentiator for us in our organisation. And integral to that is our talent philosophy and strategy, which really is focused on how to help the business achieve its goals and objectives. And in addition to that, health and wellbeing are really, really key. And so, the work that my team does to help develop talent and then support career management for the global colleagues really supports that health and wellness across the organisation.
[0:03:39] David Green: And I understand that recently, you had a campaign, the Better campaign.
[0:03:45] Katherine Macnaughton: Correct.
[0:03:45] David Green: Can you tell our listeners maybe a little bit about that?
[0:03:49] Katherine Macnaughton: Sure, sure. So, in December of 2023, we kicked off a campaign which we've called Better, and we had a question that we posed to our colleagues which was, "What does better mean to you?" And in answer to that question, we had over 200 submissions from our global colleague population, who told us their stories about what Better means to them and what a difference it means to be a colleague at Manulife. And in those submissions, we chose a few people from both North America and Asia who got some TED Talk training, and they delivered their personal stories to our global employees during a colleague forum throughout the year.
What that really initiated and engaged was a real renewed sense of pride in their working at Manulife and really connected, not only their roles, but their work to our mission as an organisation, which is to help people make easier decisions and their lives better. So, it fostered not only a renewed sense in our mission and vision, but also really drove a culture of excellence and pride at the organisation.
[0:05:06] David Green: And really powerful, I guess, for all your people to hear personal stories from colleagues around the world about what Better means to them as well.
[0:05:19] Katherine Macnaughton: Absolutely. Many, many touching personal stories from all of the submissions. And in addition to the folks that were chosen to deliver their stories, we also had a group that travelled to the Philippines to work on our ESG campaign and lead some work there in communities there. So, not only was it a benefit to the people who were selected to share their stories, but it also impacted those who heard their stories, and then the additional folks that were chosen to go and pay it forward in communities in Asia.
[0:05:57] David Green: And a significant part of your business is based in the Philippines, is that right?
[0:06:02] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah. Actually, Asia is our growth market and we're in a number of markets in Asia, and we do have quite a big employee population in the Philippines, about 7,000 are located there. But we're also in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Cambodia, Malaysia, etc. So, a lot of presence in Asia.
[0:06:28] David Green: Really good. And with this type of campaign, or any organisation cultural shift, there's usually a catalyst that prompts it. For Manulife, what was the catalyst that provided the impetus to kind of transform your organisational culture?
[0:06:47] Katherine Macnaughton: Well, we began our transformation agenda back in 2017, and 2023 was really a milestone year, in part because of that Better campaign that we were just chatting about, David. But really, what kick-started our transformation was a renewed mission and purpose, which was about helping our customers live easier and better lives by making easier decisions. And as part of that as well, we refreshed things like our values and our strategy. So, the high-performing teams aspect of our strategy was really a part of that catalyst, and our executive team and our board made the right decision in prioritising talent and our colleagues as part of our business strategy. Everything we do in my team space needs to support that business strategy, and the people really are what enable our success. And so, the two really go hand-in-hand. And so, ever since then, we've been focused on improving change mindset, doing things in an easier, better, faster pace, not only for our colleagues, but also for the benefit of our customers and our stakeholders. And we've really seen a shift, not only in how we're supporting our customers and their benefits, but culture across the organisation.
[0:08:19] David Green: We're going to dig in a little bit more to the Better initiative as well in a minute. But before that, Katherine, I'm really interested in this focus on high-performing teams, because a lot of the work that we do in HR and talent management, I'm talking now holistically outside Manulife, seems to be focused on individuals. And there's obviously enough science and data out there that tells us that if you actually can move the dial on the team, you'll have a much bigger impact on the organisation. I presume that was one of the reasons that you looked at. But can you talk a little bit to what that means for your team's role and that focus on high-performing teams?
[0:10:26] Katherine Macnaughton: Sure. So, our HR and communications function, all of our work resides in support of that high-performing teams pillar, naturally. And so, our strategy really is about planning to make sure that we know the talent we need, and then it can effectively go after the talent we want. Engagement is a big part of that, as well as energising the team to support them through times of change. Diversity, equity, and inclusion plays a big role in that strategy as well. And then, all of that informs how we prioritise the programmes and initiatives to help us know who our talent is and develop their capabilities. Also, I think we're a little bit unique in some organisations in that we have HR and communications as one team. And so, we partner very closely with our communications team to make sure that our campaigns are integrated, they reinforce everything that we believe to be true in helping support those high-performing teams, and really get that behaviour change that we're looking for, that really breeds the culture we want here at the organisation.
[0:11:41] David Green: Yes, again, really interesting, because I've heard from a lot of guests on the podcast that HR could learn from marketing, and I've seen that with some of the work that we do at Insight222, particularly in the people analytics space. So, that kind of combination of having HR and communications together, you've got that people and HR expertise with that marketing and communications expertise, it's really important isn't it? And certainly, if you're trying to drive change, for example, within the organisation, having that combination together is very powerful.
[0:12:15] Katherine Macnaughton: It is, and it is a benefit to us as an organisation to have that integration. I should mention too that how we ensure that our work supports the business strategy is all driven by data. So, we have some really robust HR analytics that helps us understand the pulse of the culture of our colleagues and really makes sure that we're focusing on the right things at the right time. We've had top-quartile engagement year over year for the past five years, and I think that's also a source of pride for us as an organisation. When you reach that spot, I think it's also very easy to kind of pause and relax a little bit. But I would say that our team is committed to continuing to reset that bar on engagement and our culture, because there's always more that we can do. And things will continue to evolve, so we need to be responsive and ready for that.
[0:13:17] David Green: Yeah, I think listening to what you said so far, Katherine, there's that focus on performance, but also very much that focus on culture and wellbeing as well. And obviously, the Better initiative is certainly part of that. So, you've kind of given us a little bit of an overview of what Better entailed and the sort of 200-plus colleagues that got involved, plus the additional work you did from an ESG perspective in the Philippines as well. What were some of the main initiatives that you put in place as part of the Better campaign?
[0:13:54] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, so really, that was meant to galvanise all of the colleagues in support of our easier, better, faster mandate, and we focused on Better because there's always room to reset the bar. And everybody comes to Manulife for different reasons. And so, the real main intention was to really tap into that and learn from each other and be inspired by each other. I think coming out of that, there continues to be a focus on easier, better, faster. And when we think about our work, especially with things like the advent of GenAI, we're constantly having to stay curious and re-examine how we do things, why we do things, and think with that continuous improvement mindset. So, we do a lot of work as a result in pulsing with our colleagues, pulsing with our customers, so that we can pivot and stay current with what their needs are. So, the Better really was the catalyst for a lot of that work and in conjunction with easier and faster, those are kind of the top three things we keep in mind in our day-to-day across the organisation.
[0:15:15] David Green: And in terms of, how did you go about deciding on which campaigns would be initiated? And I was also interested what ones resonated most with your employees?
[0:15:30] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, so again, going back to the strategy, making sure that we're prioritising things that are relevant to our business strategy; and then, what are we seeing in the culture and hearing in our engagement survey and listening results. And so, those really drive a lot of the initiatives. In the space that I lead, there's a lot of work to focus on leadership development and leadership capability, and to help leaders understand the value of talent management and their role and accountability in doing that. So, one of the things that we're prioritising is helping them become better coaches and give feedback in a more frequent and transparent way.
The reason why I highlight that is because our culture is really driven by leaders. It starts at the top and really is demonstrated by what leaders do and the words they use. And so, coaching and feedback really are fundamental to helping us have that transparency so we can do things easier, better, faster. If folks aren't getting feedback on a regular basis we don't have that opportunity to pivot and to course-correct. And so, that's a small example, but I think has a big impact on not only culture, but how we achieve our goals in an easier, better, faster way.
[0:16:59] David Green: And obviously, if you help the leaders, they can help their teams, and that links back to what you're talking about driving high performance in teams as well. And actually, quite interesting before, you said that it's got to be relevant to the business strategy, and how often do we fail to do that in HR sometimes. In our own little tower sometimes, we decide what we're going to do from an HR perspective, but it's got to be connected to the business strategy. So, you've got your kind of top down there, but you've also got the bottom up by looking at the employee listing piece as well. So, really interesting. And again, that coaching and feedback, obviously you're probably testing that with your employee base. What's been the response to having more regular feedback and coaching, and maybe hopefully more effective coaching from leaders as well?
[0:17:52] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, well we're in early stages of rolling that out. But what I can tell you is that one of the things we're looking to do is to demystify coaching. I think sometimes people hear the word coaching and they think it needs to be really formal, it needs to be lengthy, and it needs to be very scripted or supported. And so, what we're trying to shift is that coaching can happen anytime, in a hallway chat, it can happen in a brief one-on-one, or it can be more formal with a lot more guidance. And so, that's kind of the first step, is helping leaders understand what coaching looks and sounds like, and that they're probably doing it more often than they realise, but how can we help them amplify it so that there's much more transparency there in the conversation between the leaders and their directs. So, I'm excited about that kind of taking off more in the organisation in the coming months.
[0:18:55] David Green: And in terms of looking at the changing role of the leader, and again it'd be interesting how much you're seeing this in Manulife, again I don't know how distributed your teams are, but more increasingly, obviously particularly since COVID, leaders are managing more people that they're not seeing every day in person. It's much more like this or maybe even in different geographies as well, thinking about your business. And then secondly, the role of the leader is, are you testing getting feedback from your leaders about the increasing complexity perhaps around leadership as well, and thinking about how you help support them with that?
[0:19:38] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, we do a lot of partnership with the target audience for our programmes. So, the target audience and their leaders are often a part of our design process through things like advisory groups and focus groups. And so, that's one way that we ensure that what we're delivering is going to be on point for that group, and driving the right behaviour change that we need to see. I think with the advent of GenAI, the expectations of leaders is going to shift when as organisations start to use GenAI more consistently, a lot of those productivity gains will then allow for more room for colleagues to do more strategic work. And my hunch is that the leaders who maybe were promoted because they were the technical experts, that technical expertise now is going to be supported by the GenAI. So, the things like coaching, giving feedback, staying curious, thinking strategically, helping people through change, I think we're going to see a bigger emphasis on having capabilities and skill in those areas for leaders of the future. So, the work that we're doing right now in our leadership development series focuses on a lot of those things and how do they use those skills to really inspire their teams and drive the outcome through the people that they lead.
[0:21:14] David Green: I think firstly, the co-design, designing programmes with the audience that's going to be the recipients of it, I mean I think that's just fantastic. Is that something that's relatively new in Manulife or is it something you've done for a number of years? And if it's relatively new, what's the reaction been to the leaders in this respect?
[0:22:45] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, I would say that that's a standard for my team across the board in all of our initiatives. At Manulife, we rely very heavily and partner really closely with our HR partners to help with implementation. So, they too are a part of that co-creation and we use them as an advisory board or a touchstone to get a pulse on the business. My team is small but mighty, is how I often describe them. We're about 20 people globally, all with global mandates. So, we can't be with the business as much as we would like. So, relying on those advisory groups made up of business colleagues and with peers from across HR, we couldn't do the work we do and be successful without that input. So, that's been a standard practice for my team from the get-go.
[0:23:42] David Green: Yeah, so it helps you with scale, it helps you with relevance of the materials that are being developed and delivered, and no doubt it helps with delivering a high level of experience as well to the recipients. That's very good. And then, one other question before we kind of look maybe a little bit more about some of the employee stories on Better. Obviously, we've talked about how leadership's getting more and more complex, teams are becoming more and more distributed, and you talked about using data to support the work that you're doing. Are you looking at things like size of teams, span of controls, trying to understand, what data points tell us where a team's high-performing maybe versus one that's maybe medium- or low-performing, and then helping feed that into the organisational design and team structure and stuff like that?
[0:24:42] Katherine Macnaughton: Yes, that's right, David, we look at a number of factors, span of control being one of them. Also, are they meeting their business objectives? What does the engagement look like? What's the performance distribution across the team, etc? So, there are a number of things that come into consideration when leaders are looking at do they need to do some org design or org redesign to get the right outcome.
[0:25:10] David Green: So, Katherine, I've read some of the employee stories on your website on the Better campaign, and it's really inspiring to see how the sense of purpose of those individuals aligns with Manulife's goals. How have you created this deep connection between individual purpose and the company's mission?
[0:25:29] Katherine Macnaughton: Thanks, David, for the question. One of our values is, "Obsess about customers", and so everything we do, even our mission of, "Decisions made easier, lives made better", is done with the customer in mind. Now, not everybody gets to interact with our external customers on a regular basis. And so, for a team like mine, our customers are our other colleagues. And so, we spend a lot of time trying to keep the customer in the room and at the table with us to make sure that we've got their best interests at heart, in everything we do and the decisions we make. I would say similar to the Better Campaign, we often share stories from different divisions or functions, like our call centre, who do get to interact with the customer on a regular basis, and we highlight those stories through internal communications campaigns, because we do recognise that not everybody gets to interact with our external customers.
So, there's two things happening. It's reframing who the customer is for those who may not interact with our external customers all the time, and help them understand how their work supports them in supporting our external customers; and then, continuing to share all of those experiences from those who do interact with the customers directly to reinforce the difference that our organisation is making in lives of those we serve through our products. So, I think there's kind of two ways we can look at it.
[0:27:07] David Green: I love that connection to the customers and obviously, you talked about the relevance to the business strategy as well earlier. Now, I'm interested, have you seen any tangible business outcomes at Manulife as a result of the easier, better, faster mandate and the transformation in organisational culture?
[0:27:30] Katherine Macnaughton: Yes, we've done exceptionally well from a business perspective consistently over the last few quarters as a result. And we're getting recognised for all of the work we're doing through different industry awards, through different diversity, equity, and inclusion awards. And those span throughout Canada, the US, as well as Asia. And so, we're getting recognition from not only industry but also through our business results, and things like our share price are indicative of the progress we're making.
[0:28:09] David Green: Yeah, that's really good, because I mean you're getting obviously business outcomes, which is very important, that connection to customer, and I guess this recognition you're getting as an employer is also helping support attraction from talent, I guess, which is always hard to find the right talent. So, is this helping you when it comes to attracting the right talent into the organisation as well?
[0:28:33] Katherine Macnaughton: It definitely is. There's a lot of pride and interest when we're recruiting new talent into the organisation. And I would add to that, our global footprint is also a strategic advantage for us. There's not a lot of organisations that you can have global opportunities through by being an employee. And so, I think for certain people, that's very attractive, that there's global opportunities as a result of that.
[0:29:08] David Green: Great. You mentioned GenAI a little bit earlier. We're going to talk a little bit, a couple of questions on that now, really. It's one of the topics du jour at the moment, that's for sure, and with good reason as well. Over the past year, we've heard a number of great stories on the podcast on how HR functions around the world are using Generative AI. I'm really interested, how are you getting your workforce Gen-AI-ready?
[0:29:40] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, I love this question, because we're right in the thick of it as part of our transformation. And we started last year with our transformation strategy specific to GenAI, and it's being led through our Chief Analytics Officer. And we started last year and in order to drive use and adoption, we did a number of things. So, we built some in-house proprietary tools to help support people's initial use and familiarity with GenAI, but we started with a lot of awareness-building and kind of demystifying some of the myths that we hear about GenAI. And so, we have a pretty robust change and transformation plan. And one of the aspects in that change and transformation plan is our culture and talent work stream. And so, our focus throughout 2024 really was on building awareness, building literacy and skill development, creating the right environment and communities for people to test without fear, try and explore the tools that we had developed, and then continuing to elevate their use of GenAI.
We've seen a great uptick in use of our proprietary tools, which continue to evolve as the GenAI develops, and we're seeing a lot of productivity gains across the board for those using them. For our clients, we have a number of use cases, about 30 use cases that are in development globally, where different teams are using GenAI to enhance the customer experience and provide things easier, better, faster. But internally, we're already starting to see the adoption of our GenAI tools to help with different productivity things, like creating job descriptions, like writing performance reviews, like doing research and getting insights into external best practice that we may want to explore in the talent and learning space. So, we've just kicked off year two, and we've got some really great things on our GenAI strategy where the culture and talent space sits, and I'm looking forward to seeing how we continue to evolve.
[0:32:13] David Green: I think it's great. Obviously, that demystification is so important because if you're not technical, it's new, and there are lots of things being written about it. I think that ability you give people to play with it and learn and build their confidence, I guess, because it's competence and confidence, isn't it really, to use it. And would you say that this approach is helping ease maybe the job security fears and anxiety that we do see across, you know, there's enough surveys out there from the likes of the World Economic Forum and others, that maybe workers globally are a bit afraid that it's going to potentially replace jobs and stuff like that; is that helping with that conversation?
[0:33:02] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, it is, because I think teams are seeing the benefit of using GenAI and how it enables them in their work. I think what's really exciting is that for those who aspire to do things more strategic or on a more strategic level, the GenAI helps with that productivity to make more capacity, to lean into those more strategic skillsets. I think too, organisations, and Manulife is no different, we're really thoughtful about where we're choosing to implement and try and test GenAI. A lot of roles that are, say, entry level or maybe do a lot of that productivity work right now, some of that's really valuable experience to develop future leaders. They need to understand how the work gets done so they can support and continue to move up in the organisation. And so, I don't think anybody's advocating for replacing all of that work with GenAI, because it's a great development opportunity that then gets missed. So, I think that's why leaders and organisations are being really intentional about where they're deploying GenAI and how, yeah.
[0:34:24] David Green: And as you said, it's early days for most organisations. So, we did a piece of research last year at Insight222, nearly 350 companies participated. One of the questions we asked, and it was typically people analytics leaders that responded, was how far into the journey with AI are you at HR in your company? 62% came back and said they were in their first year. Now, we did this survey in July 2024, so not too long, about 18 months after ChatGPT was launched; and 18% hadn't started yet. So, for most HR functions, although we've been talking about AI for a long time, it does seem that GenAI has almost acted as a catalyst for companies to actually do something, and it certainly sounds like the case with you at Manulife. But maybe for any organisations that haven't started yet using GenAI or haven't maybe even looked at how they're going to help employees and HR professionals as well, and you talked about how you're using it both across the organisation but also in HR, what sort of guidance or tips would you give to your peers in other organisations, based on what you've learned so far?
[0:35:44] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, it's a question I get asked often. And when I'm with peers and I mention what we're doing in GenAI, everybody's always really curious to hear how we got started and why. And so, our GenAI journey kind of came to the fore last year, but we were already on kind of an advanced analytics journey for a number of years prior to that. So, there's been an evolution that's happened. We see GenAI enabling our strategy and propelling us even faster than what we are today. And so, our senior leadership team made it a priority and made the decision to invest in that space. That may not be the case for all. I do know though that a lot of the vendor partners that we work with on different platforms, or you know, you see software as a system, a lot of them are already deploying GenAI in their systems. And so again, tying back to the business strategy, what is it you're trying to achieve and how are you going to get there? And then thinking about, okay, do we want to deploy GenAI to help support that?
So, those are always the questions we're asking, even in even in the talent and development space, as we continue to move forward. And you have to be choiceful, so a lot of conversations for us around the leadership team about when and where and how. But it is exciting times and it's advancing at a much quicker pace than I think anybody can keep pace with. So, it's exciting, it's an exciting time.
[0:37:35] David Green: No, I think that's a really good tip. Connect it, again I think, a thread through a lot that you've said throughout our conversation, Katherine, is connect it to the business strategy and the business priorities, because then (a) you'll get the investment and time and support from leaders, but (b) you're likely to have an outcome, you know, you're likely to have positive outcomes as well that help the business. So, Katherine, this is the penultimate question, and the last one's an easy question. So, this is the penultimate question. So, this is the question that we're asking every guest in this series of the podcast, and I think it probably talks to a lot what you've said already, actually, so hopefully it's a nice one for you. How do you align HR and business strategies to ensure employee experience directly contributes to the company success?
[0:38:32] Katherine Macnaughton: Yeah, that's a great question. And so, some of the things that we're ensuring that we do in my space is in addition to the values, we have really clear expectations for leaders, what does it mean to be leader at the organisation? So, with that success profile, all of our programmes are predicated and built on the values and that success profile. So, we don't diverge from that, and that directly supports our strategic pillar of high-performing teams. What we're also looking to do this year is get better at tying the development and the talent initiatives to moments that matter along an employee's life cycle. So, things like when you have someone moving up in the organisation from, say, a director to an AVP, that's a pretty important transition and pivot that someone needs to make. So, what do we need to do to set them up for success, and how can our programmes and initiatives support them at that key point? So, that's another thing that we're working on, to tie it back to the business strategy and our talent strategy and our leadership development strategy in support of our objectives overall.
I did mention our values. We have six values that have been in place for a number of years now. We're also looking this year to do a bit of a refresh on those values, not to change them, but with customer centricity and 'obsess about the customer' being so critical to our business, we're going to recast and emphasise customer centricity as well as innovation, because of our prioritisation of GenAI. So, 'think big' and 'obsess about the customers' are going to play a really focused role in our strategy for this year and going forward.
[0:40:32] David Green: Very good. Well, Katherine, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think you and the team are doing some amazing work at Manulife. And I do recommend, as I said, any listeners who are looking at doing a similar initiative to what you did with Better, do check out some of your employee stories on the Manulife website. For anyone who wants to learn more about Manulife more generally or get in touch with you, Katherine, what's the best way for them to connect?
[0:41:02] Katherine Macnaughton: Sure, and I welcome that, so thanks for the question, David. Definitely, our website has a lot of really robust information for sure, and please, would love your feedback on the stories, for those listeners who take your advice and go and have a read. But also, on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm a member of a couple of external peer groups and always looking to hear stories and best practices from other practitioners, because I think there's a lot of good work happening out there and we can all learn from each other. So, thank you, David.
[0:41:40] David Green: Definitely. And you're right, we can learn so much from each other as a field. Katherine, thank you very much.
[0:41:47] Katherine Macnaughton: Thank you, David.